My Pioneer 151 Calibration Findings

[LebEryo]

First time calibrator here. I spent the good part of last night calibrating my Pioneer 151's ISF modes using ColorHCFR, ControlCal and and i1Pro. I'm attaching some pictures off of ColorHCFR for criticism or feedback. I was able to get grayscale tracking pretty much spot on. Contrast I set to 34 and the i1Pro was reading a good 39ftL with that setting (maybe too high?) I left brightness at 0 but a -1 setting might have worked as well. Gamma looks pretty decent. I wasn't able to get it as ruler flat as some people have here but I think it's still ok. The correct color setting on my TV was +1. It's surprising how some people set it as high as +5. My color gamut was the main problem. As shown on the CIE chart, green is way off and I wasn't able to get that under control. The green RGBCMYK control don't seem to have any effect on green which I thought was weird. Anyway, criticism or feedback would really be welcome as this is the first time I've calibrated any tv.

[Turbe]

what mode was this in? Pure?
ISF-Day.

For you first time and your recently purchased I1 Pro from eBay, that's pretty good... :thumbsup:

A little more tweaking of the grayscale (high/low)& color and you will be set there...

[LebEryo]

For you first time and your recently purchased I1 Pro from eBay, that's pretty good... :thumbsup:

A little more tweaking of the grayscale (high/low) and you will be set there...

Lol, thx. The grayscale is easy to fix. The CIE color gamut I'm having a hard time with. Do you see Green in the CIE chart, it's way off. I don't know how to fix that. I tried lowering G but I would need to go like -7 or something to fix it. D-Nice, is recommending not to adjust the RGBCMYK settings more than +- 2 because it would severely effect grayscale. Also, I was hoping the gamma to be a little bit better...

[D-Nice]

Please post your settings.....something doesn't look right with the CIE chart (looks like you are using CS1).

[sillysally]

Lol, thx. The grayscale is easy to fix. The CIE color gamut I'm having a hard time with. Do you see Green in the CIE chart, it's way off. I don't know how to fix that. I tried lowering G but I would need to go like -7 or something to fix it. D-Nice, is recommending not to adjust the RGBCMYK settings more than +- 2 because it would severely effect grayscale. Also, I was hoping the gamma to be a little bit better...

For your first time out of the box you did good. And yes green is the problem.
I would guess that you are using Gamma 2. And yes If you were to correct Green with your CMS you would be setting green to at least -6 if you are lucky.
You may want to look at your work flow. And also try different Gammas. What I have found is that you are better off tweaking your secondary's and leave the primaries alone.
I do not think D-Nice has worked on a 141 yet. However I think Turbe has a 141 so I would sure like to know how he is setting up his 141. :hiya:
Also read what has been posted. I just got a very good tip from Mr. Miller, and that was not on the 141 but setting on the BDP-51. I will be doing a little more testing on what the impact that has on the rest of my calibrations. I ran out of time last night but from what I could see , a few small changes on my settings with my 141 may get me were I want to be.

[LebEryo]

Gamma 2? Do you mean the 9pt settings? Those I left at their 0 settings. I'm going to double check my settings tonight. I had most of the settings set to D-Nice's ISF settings before making adjustments. We'll see tonight.

[sillysally]

Gamma 2? Do you mean the 9pt settings? Those I left at their 0 settings. I'm going to double check my settings tonight. I had most of the settings set to D-Nice's ISF settings before making adjustments. We'll see tonight.

That is a very good question. Is there a way you can use the Gamma choices in the 141 using ControlCal? :hiya: Turbe.

And no i have not used ControlCal yet. However It would seem to me that you are having the same problem with Green and CMS gamut.

[D-Nice]

He has a 151, not a 141. There isn't a Gamma 1,2,3 etc setting in the ISFccc menu. There is only the 9 point gamma controls. Also, there is no difference between calibrating a 141 vs a 151 beside knowing and understanding the sub picture settings.

At any rate, attempting to move the green slider to -6 in the CMS is asking for serious trouble...Sig series or regular Elite.

[Turbe]

As D-Nice Posted/asked, please do Post your Settings, I meant to post that in my previous Post but watching the stock market take a dive AGAIN today has me a little crazy. :thumbsdown:

[LebEryo]

As I suspected; color space is already set to 2 in controlcal. Enhancer mode 1. I'm kind of confused now as to how to fix the color gamut. Btw. Turbe, I've never been able to set controlcal to zoom 11 auto. It always gives me an error box or doesn't go through. Should I be using dotbydot mode when taking the window readings or zoom or wide?

[D-Nice]

As I suspected; color space is already set to 2 in controlcal. Enhancer mode 1. I'm kind of confused now as to how to fix the color gamut. Btw. Turbe, I've never been able to set controlcal to zoom 11 auto. It always gives me an error box or doesn't go through. Should I be using dotbydot mode when taking the window readings or zoom or wide?Why are you attempting set the stretch mode to zoom? While taking measurements, your strech mode should be set to Full or DotbyDot....depending on your source type.

Also, can you please post all of your settings?

[LebEryo]

Ok, my settings are:
AV Selection: ISF-Day
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +1
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15
Pure Cinema: Advance
Text Optimization: Off
Intelligence: Off
DRE Picture: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 1
Color Space: 2
CTI: Off
3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off
Power Save Mode: Off
Orbiter: Mode 2

RGB Controls
R High +3
G High 0
B High +4
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low 0

Color Management
R -2
Y 0
G -2
C -2
B +1
M -2

I have a question about the color setting. A setting of +1 gives the perfect Y for Red but is low on almost all the other colors. For example my 100% White IRE Y=133. Red at 21% should be about 28 which it is at Color +1 but for blue, green, cyan, yellow magent the Y reading is low at +1. It needs to be set to about +3 to give the correct luminance for the other primaries and secondaries. What should one do when that's the case?

[Turbe]

Did you say that your I1 Pro didn't come with it's base (and white tile)?

[LebEryo]

The calibration plate? It has the calibration plate, and the plate with the white tile on it. On the pictures it showed the tile plate being round and flat which confused me a little.

[Turbe]

OK, my memory wasn't serving me well there.. :)

[D-Nice]

Ok, my settings are:
AV Selection: ISF-Day
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +1
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15
Pure Cinema: Advance
Text Optimization: Off
Intelligence: Off
DRE Picture: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 1
Color Space: 2
CTI: Off
3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off
Power Save Mode: Off
Orbiter: Mode 2

RGB Controls
R High +3
G High 0
B High +4
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low 0

Color Management
R -2
Y 0
G -2
C -2
B +1
M -2

I have a question about the color setting. A setting of +1 gives the perfect Y for Red but is low on almost all the other colors. For example my 100% White IRE Y=133. Red at 21% should be about 28 which it is at Color +1 but for blue, green, cyan, yellow magent the Y reading is low at +1. It needs to be set to about +3 to give the correct luminance for the other primaries and secondaries. What should one do when that's the case?You do not need to use 100% windowed colors to calibrate your 151FD. The 75% windowed patterns are fine. Try that and see if the luminance levels are better.

Your settings look ok. Not sure why your Red color point looks like it is outside of the CIE triangle. Can you post your .chc file?

[LebEryo]

I spent another 3 hours last night adjusting. Looking at the charts though it looks like I went backwards instead of improving things. I moved color to +2. Attaching my CHC file.
I'll try the 75% windows again tomorrow.

[D-Nice]

I spent another 3 hours last night adjusting. Looking at the charts though it looks like I went backwards instead of improving things. I moved color to +2. Attaching my CHC file.
I'll try the 75% windows again tomorrow.Thanks. I'll take a look at your .chc later today and post my recommendations.

[D-Nice]

I spent another 3 hours last night adjusting. Looking at the charts though it looks like I went backwards instead of improving things. I moved color to +2. Attaching my CHC file.
I'll try the 75% windows again tomorrow.Ok, whatever you changed you need to change back to your previous settings. Your green channel is too high and is causing your luminance (gamma) to be higher than it should be. This increase in green channel luminance is also affecting your RGBYCM color point luminance levels.

[LebEryo]

Ok, whatever you changed you need to change back to your previous settings. Your green channel is too high and is causing your luminance (gamma) to be higher than it should be. This increase in green channel luminance is also affecting your RGBYCM color point luminance levels.

Ok, thx. Any idea though as to fix the green x,y coordinates from the CIE chart? It doesn't seem like that's fixeable.

[LebEryo]

I spent another 3 hours last night, begining from scratch. This thing is taking a heap of time to do. I've gotten closer than anything I've done so far. D-Nice you're saying you've never seen a 151 that didn't need a Color+3 setting. +3 measures too high Red Y for me. I checked the 100% and 75% IRE windows and confirmed. I would be happy with this setup if it wasn't for the gamma that's got some peaks. What causes gamma to behave like that? Is it the grayscale or color adjustments that causes it to wiggle?
Just realized something tonight, which I don't know if it made a difference in my readings or not. I had the color sensor on mode1 while doing my readings. I'm going to go back and re-check everything tonight to make sure it didn't affect anything.

[D-Nice]

The room light sensor will have a significant impact on your calibration numbers.

I spent another 3 hours last night, begining from scratch. This thing is taking a heap of time to do. I've gotten closer than anything I've done so far. D-Nice you're saying you've never seen a 151 that didn't need a Color+3 setting. +3 measures too high Red Y for me. I checked the 100% and 75% IRE windows and confirmed. I would be happy with this setup if it wasn't for the gamma that's got some peaks. What causes gamma to behave like that? Is it the grayscale or color adjustments that causes it to wiggle?
Just realized something tonight, which I don't know if it made a difference in my readings or not. I had the color sensor on mode1 while doing my readings. I'm going to go back and re-check everything tonight to make sure it didn't affect anything.

[LebEryo]

The room light sensor will have a significant impact on your calibration numbers.

Yep, I'm getting more light output from the same contrast now. I'm getting about 31ftL from a contrast setting of 23. Unfortunately though I can't get the CIE chart much better than it was earlier.

[LebEryo]

D-Nice, would you recommend to lower the G-High or Low settings in instances like this where the CIE Chart looks really off with green? Would that bring Green closer to the correct x,y coordinates? Maybe an adjustment of +or- 1 would fix the chart?

[D-Nice]

D-Nice, would you recommend to lower the G-High or Low settings in instances like this where the CIE Chart looks really off with green? Would that bring Green closer to the correct x,y coordinates? Maybe an adjustment of +or- 1 would fix the chart?The G-High/Low controls do not affect the x/y plots for green. Reducing them will affect the Y (luminance) of all colors.

[LebEryo]

D-Nice, after reading what you said on other threads, to make G-Hi -1 and G-Lo +1, I tried it and this is the CHC file that I came up with. I'm curious what the -1 and +1 does to measurements. Does it straighten out the gamma curve a little more? Anyway, I measured using my i1Pro.

[D-Nice]

D-Nice, after reading what you said on other threads, to make G-Hi -1 and G-Lo +1, I tried it and this is the CHC file that I came up with. I'm curious what the -1 and +1 does to measurements. Does it straighten out the gamma curve a little more? Anyway, I measured using my i1Pro.I don't have HCFR or CalMAN installed on this particular PC. Can you post screen shots of the data file so I can see your results?

[LebEryo]

Here they are.

[D-Nice]

Here they are.Thank you. Your charts are MUCH
better. To fix your lower end, you have a few options.....

Use reduce R-Low and B-Low be 1 and see if that helps (may have to move B-high down one click if you reduce R-Low by one).

If that does not work, try keeping R-Low reduced by 1 click and use the B, and/or a combo of the G and C CMS controls to tame Blue on the lower end (ex. B control set to +2, and/or G and C controls set to -1 and -1 respectively).

[LebEryo]

My current settings are;
ISF Night
Color +1
Contrast 23 (28FtL)
RH +2
GH-1
BH +4
RL -1
GL +1
BL +1

R 0
G-1
B 0
C-1
M-2
Y 0

With these settings I was better able to reduce the red push in the lower IREs' than what's on the chart here. I just forgot to save the CHC file, but I remember it being pretty flat afterwards. Any other criticisms besides the grayscale??? Is the Gamma good enough you think?

[D-Nice]

My current settings are;
ISF Night
Color +1
Contrast 23 (28FtL)
RH +2
GH-1
BH +4
RL -1
GL +1
BL +1

R 0
G-1
B 0
C-1
M-2
Y 0

With these settings I was better able to reduce the red push in the lower IREs' than what's on the chart here. I just forgot to save the CHC file, but I remember it being pretty flat afterwards. Any other criticisms besides the grayscale??? Is the Gamma good enough you think?Your gamma is fine for your peak light output. You have a hump at 20% stimuli, but there really isn't anything you can do about it (changing the gamma at 10% or 20% will probably do more harm that any gained benefits). HFCR always screws up the CIE chart, so I really cannot tell you how good your colors are without seeing the hard numbers.

All in all......:thumbsup:

[LebEryo]

Thanks for the help.

The RGBCMY controls, these affect grayscale? I didn't know that. You're saying these controls affect the color in the lower IREs. Their affect doesn't go up to the higher Ires' so much? So if I had a blue push at the bottom, I would just put Blue at -2 and possilby Red to +1 or +2.

[D-Nice]

Thanks for the help.

The RGBCMY controls, these affect grayscale?They do, but you HAVE to know what you are doing.
You're saying these controls affect the color in the lower IREs.The ones I pointed out only affect the lower end.
So if I had a blue push at the bottom, I would just put Blue at -2 and possilby Red to +1 or +2.The term "push" is a color decoder issue. The correct term is "plus". You correct plus issues with grayscale controls, CMS controls, or a combination of both.

[SamS]

Here they are.

Your CIE Gamut looks very close to mine. Still can't figure out how to get my Green in line. D-Nice's turned out so good :p

I'm going to work on my gamma and grayscale again tomorrow night.

[LebEryo]

Ok, so I thought I'd give D-Nice's new 151 settings a try. In 10 minutes I was able to get the best grayscale readings in weeks! I'm posting measurements from ColorHCFR. His adjustments of the RGBCMY settings are spot on. I've come to the conclusion that ColorHCFR's CIE readings are not reliable. The startling thing is how the measurements are really steady. With my settings for example Red could measure from 98-100%, it would change every second. With these settings it's either 99or100 throughout the ire range for RGB. There isn't as much variance in the readings. Take a look for yourself.
The only question in my mind is to whether to trust ColorHCFR's color reading. My correct color setting is +1 as per ColorHCFR's readings. D-Nice is recommending +3. Others are using even higher settings.

[D-Nice]

Congrats on your calibration. All 151FDs I've come across require a color setting of +3 to equal out the luminance RGBCMY. If you have heard of anyone using a higher color setting, then they use color filters to set the saturation level (not the correct way of the 9G Elites).

[LebEryo]

Thx D-Nice. I'm very happy with my picture at this point. I'll move the color setting up to +3. Your vodoo magic on the RGBCMY settings, completely flattened out the grayscale for me:)

[SamS]

All 151FDs I've come across require a color setting of +3 to equal out the luminance RGBCMY.

At the risk of asking a very dumb question, I am curious to know how you use CalMAN to measure RGBCMY luminance? Would this show up on the CIE gamut?

Setting color is something I still struggle with (not on the 151FD).

[D-Nice]

At the risk of asking a very dumb question, I am curious to know how you use CalMAN to measure RGBCMY luminance? Would this show up on the CIE gamut?

Setting color is something I still struggle with (not on the 151FD).There is a luminacne chart on the "Gamut with Luminance" and/or "Advance Color and Gamut" listed under the "Example Calibration Layouts".