Pioneer 141 WTW clipping with BDP-05/51? EDIT: and Sony PS3

[eddiscus]

As per Turbe's request. Test results using Pioneer BDP-05 to several displays checking BTB and WTW capability.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15075905#post15075905

Thanks to Robert and Wendy of Value electronics I was able to do some tests and comparisons on the displays in his store.

I do see a definite anomaly that exists between the 05/51 and the 141. So if Ruined or Chris see fit it should be brought to the attention of engineering. This anomaly in no way prevents the player from being properly calibrated to the Display but the regular user that has this player display combo should under stand that it exists.

The only 2 modes that would pass WTW and BTB to the display were:
1: Put the players HDMI color space in RGB (16-235)
or
2:Put the players Mode in Manual and adjust white level down -1 click (for WTW) and Black level up +1 click (for BTB)

Strange enough this anomaly did not exist when a Sony BDP51 or a Denon 1800BD were connected.

http://eddiscus.smugmug.com/photos/417211577_mNHTR-X3.jpg

Note: Sony model tested was the Sony BDP-S1 not a BDP-51 (not a sony model) sorry for the typo error.

[Turbe]

PS3 and a 141:
You want RGB to be FULL. Set bluray to output ycbcr super white on. With super white on or off u will still be able to see the below black bar. Super white on only affects above white.


Followups:
thank you totalownership and turbe. I got it to work. Im very happy that i figured out why my isf settings was not showing above white and why my standard mode settings were on my PS3 with super white enabled.

If u want above white to show up clearly u need to have any of the DRE Picture settings on. but now theres a trade off with that. I guess ill have to see which i like best or if i can see a difference. Im going to try low.

I'll need to look into this too since I have a PS3 and 141. I probably should just search, what pattern/test disc are you using again (and which pattern specifically?


sillysally, are you experiencing any issues with your BR Players?

Its the 1080p grey ramps pattern on the bluray version of DVE. This WTW behaves the same way on any other mode , like standard mode , etc...
So its not the controlcal software , its the 141 that behaves this way.

Well it is well documented what I think about my pio BD51 (1.17) and yes there is a problem with crush with the BD51 and my 141. However using my panny BD55 there is np.

I don't really rely on the ramps with DVE, but yes I do check them when I am done calibrating. As I think you know I use my spectroradiometer (i1pro) and Calman, along with the raw data reports that Calman puts out.

I know you have worked with Pioneer on the software of the 141. So maybe you and Pioneer could work on a updated for the software/firmware of the CMS in the 141. ;)

Please note that I am saying you, because of the great job you did with the ISF mode software of Controlcal. ;)

hmmm, it doesn't sound like a 141 issue...

You said it, not me. :D

The only thing I'll add here Turbe is that I have seen white clipping on both the Pioneer 05 and the PS3 players. I think if the player passes 0-255 as opposed to 16-235, you'll see the clipping issue. A player that restricts its output to 16-235 may result in the display never showing a white clipping issue. With the 05, a simple one click lowering of white level solves the issue completely. Unfortunately there's no way to do that on the PS3.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I do believe there is a WTW issue with the 9g Elites (111/141/151) when fed a 0-255 signal. Again, I don't think this is a real issue with real world material since properly mastered BDs will never show WTW anyway.

There is no such thing as WTW with a 0-255 signal. 0 equals black and 255 equals white.

White level to -1 fixes this very minor problem.:)

At least on my 151 it does.

Agreed, it is minor and fixed easily. But what magic exists between the 05/51 and the 141 if any that causes this.
It is there to a lesser degree on the 111 and 151.
Not a problem with the 110 and 150.
No big deal just inquisitive.

It appears this issue applies to the 151/111's as well (at least with the Pioneer BR Players).

What I meant to say is that when a 0-255 signal is allowed, a grayscale ramp shows the brightest white to be slightly clipped.

I did some further testing today and found that as another poster said, when the DRE is activated at any level, the white clipping is gone. None of the AV settings (with DRE off) avoided the clipping issue, however DRE at a setting of even 'low' does show the entire ramp.

Again, it's not a big deal and totally absent with properly mastered material.

Eddie, I think there's little doubt that this issue does exist in the 9g Elites. My observations and your testing show the same thing...unless we're all overlooking something.

Again, it's not just with the 05/51, the same exact issue can be seen on my PS3, only there's no way to correct it on the PS3. I tried turning 'super-white' off on the PS3 and that had no effect. However, activating any level of DRE on the 151, eliminated the issue there too.

eddi, thanks for your testing. The one thing I didn't try was increasing the black setting (+1) in my BD51 along with lowing the white setting (-1). That may just do the trick.

And as you have pointed out some of the other BD players do not have this problem, were as the ps3 and the BD05/51 does have a problem.

Agreed.

Leaves me scratching my head.:confused:

Thank goodness it is correctable.

Do you have a selection on the PS3 for HDMI colorspace or something equal to RGB (16-235). Just wondering if it will work on the PS3 as it worked on the 05/51.

Eddie, I'd have to back and check. But what was interesting is that I confirmed that any DRE mode (other than off), will totally eliminate the WTW issue regardless of the 05 or PS3 settings. Of course you are then locked in to the DRE modes to eliminate this issue and to some that would be unacceptible. I tend not to use DRE myself.

Ken,

I can also confirm that any DRE setting but "Off" eliminates the
WTW issue on the 51.

The problem with using any DRE setting, it affects your gamma.

I do not use DRE either.

Mike

Is it only the signature panels that are affected with the WTW bug or is it all the 9G panels?

Has anyone tried colorspace 1 to see if that affects WTW. Is colorspace 1 supposed to be a wider colorspace than 2?

Chris

Chris, it's all 9g Elites (111/151/141). I actually went back and re-read a couple of reviews on the 111 and they both pointed out the WTW issue in these panels.

I think it's important to point out (as did the reviews), that it's very very tough to find any real-world material where you would actually see this issue. One of the reviews pointed out that he went over literally hundreds of bright white scenes and compared them directly with a reference panel that could display WTW. The bottom line was that he could not find a single scene where the reference display showed details in white that was missing from the Elite.

So we shouldn't get too crazy about this.

I thought that showing white above 235 was "passing WTW".....because my 9G shows white all the way up in into the 250's.

This is with a PS3. What am I missing?

I am using the AVS HD 709 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496) disc. The pattern is the main contrast one that has the flashing white bars from like 230 to 255. I can see all the bars up to like 252 or so from my seating position.

I also looked at DVE Blu ray and used the reverse ramps and steps pattern....and I could see the bar that was above white.


I have a 5090 (9G in Europe...Sweden to be specific)....kinda of like a NA elite minus Pure mode. It has all the advanced picture adjustments. I use a Swedish PS3 set to Y/Pb/Pr.....limited.....superwhite on.

Also, I have DRE set to OFF.

If anything the set was crushing 253-255, but at that level it is hard to distinguish anyways....but again, that was from my viewing position, and I will have to check up close tonite.

But on DVE it was clearly passing WTW, but DVE seemed less exacting compared to REC 709, because REC 709 provided individual values up to 255. I don't know what value the WTW bars are on DVE..?


So the only thing my set (or the PS3) is POSSIBLY crushing is WTW 253-255. Will verify tonite.

[Turbe]

You want RGB to be FULL. Set bluray to output ycbcr super white on. With super white on or off u will still be able to see the below black bar. Super white on only affects above white.

Why are you setting RGB to FULL?

[baddgsx]

Why are you setting RGB to FULL?

hi , if i have it set to limited i can not see the BTB line. I can only see it when its set to full. Whats nice about the PS3 is that u can switch from ycbcr to RGB while still being in the test pattern. Even Kevin confirmed that setting to full is correct on the 141.

[D-Nice]

hi , if i have it set to limited i can not see the BTB line. I can only see it when its set to full. Whats nice about the PS3 is that u can switch from ycbcr to RGB while still being in the test pattern. Even Kevin confirmed that setting to full is correct on the 141.What do you have for your HDMI video setting on your 141? Auto, Color-1, Color-2, Color-3, or Color-4 (page 55 in your manual)?

For BD/DVD playback on the PS3, you should have it set to Limited with Super White set to On.

[Turbe]

and/or check under HOME MENU/Input Setup

Options:
Auto
1(YUV322)
2(YUV444)
3(RGB16-235)
4(RGB 0-255)

[baddgsx]

What do you have for your HDMI video setting on your 141? Auto, Color-1, Color-2, Color-3, or Color-4 (page 55 in your manual)?

For BD/DVD playback on the PS3, you should have it set to Limited with Super White set to On.

I have all my hdmi inputs set to auto in the HOME MENU/INPUT SETUP, since the PS3 displays both RGB and YCBCR. I dont even remember an auto , color 1 , color 2 , color 3 , color 4 setting but ill look tonight and see

If i set my PS3 to RGB limited than my deep blacks look like blacks from plasma TVs 6 years ago. Not so good.

D-Nice , are you using a PS3? I cant see using RGB limited is correct when it doesnt show the third BTB and the YCBCR ISF calibrated does.

Super white can be on or off on the 141 now , since the 141 cant display WTW properly. I keep it on with DRE off. DRE on low will display WTW but affects the picture gamma aswell so im keeping it off now like kevin Miller said.

[petmic10]

I have all my hdmi inputs set to auto in the HOME MENU/INPUT SETUP, since the PS3 displays both RGB and YCBCR. I dont even remember an auto , color 1 , color 2 , color 3 , color 4 setting but ill look tonight and see

If i set my PS3 to RGB limited than my deep blacks look like blacks from plasma TVs 6 years ago. Not so good.

D-Nice , are you using a PS3? I cant see using RGB limited is correct when it doesnt show the third BTB and the YCBCR ISF calibrated does.

Super white can be on or off on the 141 now , since the 141 cant display WTW properly. I keep it on with DRE off. DRE on low will display WTW but affects the picture gamma aswell so im keeping it off now like kevin Miller said.


Have you tried re-calibrating for RGB Limited?

Limited: RGB output signal is output in the range from 16 to 235.

I believe this is the preferred setting for Blu-ray playback.

http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/rgbfullrange.html

[baddgsx]

bluray discs are encoded in ycbcr 4:2:0

[petmic10]

bluray discs are encoded in ycbcr 4:2:0

Yes, they are, but out of the two settings on the PS3, limited or full,
limited(16-235) would be the prefered setting because full(0-255) is
normally used for PC signals.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb

YCbCr has a native data range of 16-235 (though it technically can do 0-255, but more on that later). The difference? Well, while you would think that RGB and its 0-255 would have a greater amount of color, the discs we all watch are mastered at the YCbCr 16-235 levels. In keeping with our definition of accuracy, the best thing you can do is match the original - this avoids interpolation and possible distortion of the original color and image

[D-Nice]

D-Nice , are you using a PS3? No

I cant see using RGB limited is correct when it doesnt show the third BTB and the YCBCR ISF calibrated does.You need to force your 141 to use 16-235. Set it to Color-3.

[baddgsx]

I used the AVS HD REC 709 disk last night on the PS3 to see if indeed my PS3 needed to be set to limited. The REC 709 disc from is really nice ( I like it better than the DVE ) . For brightness it shows every line from 0 to 22.

I first checked my ycbcr isf day settings from kevin which were good. I can barely see 16 , 17 at a brightness of +2. I cant see anything at 0-15 even if i crank up the brightness.

Then i switched to RGB Full , which indeed looks exactly the same as my ycbcr. 18,19,20,21,22 can clearly be seen. not 16 , 17. If i bump bump the brightness to +4 i can see 16,17 clearly but then the whole screen starts to brighten up which makes the overall black level horrible.

Now i switch it to limited. I can see all the lines from 16-22 not 0-15 but i need to put the brightness down to -16 to get good results.


So my conclution is that if i switch from ycbcr to RGB full and i get the SAME brightness results of +2 and all my shades of grey are evident than leaving RGB to full IS infact CORRECT.:lesson:

[D-Nice]

I don't think you know how that particular pattern is suppose to work....

16 on the AVS709 disk represents black (aka 16 with Studio RGB). You are suppose to set the brightness where 16 matches the background (not flashing) and 17 is barely visible. If you have your brightness setup anything beyond those parameters, it is not setup correctly.

[baddgsx]

I don't think you know how that particular pattern is suppose to work....

17 on the AVS709 disk represents black (aka 16 with Studio RGB). You are suppose to set the brightness where 17 matches the background (not flashing) and 16 is barely visible. If you have your brightness setup anything beyond those parameters, it is not setup correctly.

17 is supposed to match the background, 16 is supposed to be barely visible?
Than whats 15 and lower supposed to be visible?

[D-Nice]

17 is supposed to match the background, 16 is supposed to be barely visible?
Than whats 15 and lower supposed to be visible?I typed that backwards. 16 is supposse to be invisible. 17 is suppose to be barely visiable. 15 and below is suppose to be invisible.

[SamS]

Bringing this one up, because it is really bugging me that I cannot get 236-255 IRE to be visible when I use ISFccc modes. Having this problem when using the PS3 or OPPO BDP-83 connected directly to my 151FD.

If I switch picture modes to Performance or Movie, the 235-255 bars are visible. It doesn't really matter what I set my contrast to within ISF-Day/Night. Something in ISFccc is clipping them...

I'm tempted to change DRE Enhancer to Low, but I don't know how that might screw things up.

[Turbe]

Please read all comments together and importantly, D-Nice's on the next Post below:
The 9Gen clip above white across the model range, perhaps to accomodate for the adjustments necessary to facilitate the lowered black levels; this makes a difference. I see highlights on my 5010FD that are INVISIBLE on my 500M. No? The VERY FIRST Kuro review in Home Theater Magazine highlighted (pun intended) the reviewer's abject amazement at the fact that "the highlights had highlights", gushing over the ANSI contrast readings (its real-world affect) and the fact that the Kuro's ability to perceive and display above white readings extended the 3 dimensional aspect of the picture that much further. Don't take my word for it; log on and check it out for yourself. That's only one of the issues I have with the KRP. Kuros are the best panels in the world,bar none; the differences between sublime and perfection, however, are negligible at best..
The KRP's clip whites with DRE off.

Try setting DRE to "Low" :)

--M--
Clipping is a known configuration issue (at least some of us feel that way). The "problem" and solution is noted in more careful reviews and, of course, in this thread.

[Turbe]

.
I honestly believe that Pioneer sacrificed the upper spectrum, the above-white to achieve their lowered black levels.
And you are dead wrong. There is a voltage issue in the Pure/ISF-Auto/ISF-Day/ISF-Night templates causes those A/V mode to clip some WTW information. This voltage issue does not in the other A/V modes. It also can easily be corrected on some BD players.
Are you sugggesting reducing the contrast setting the the DVD player to compensate?
- Rich
Yes
If so, could this be done witht the DVDO Edge to acheive the same result?

- Rich
Yes.

[tony22]

So is D-Nice saying than in these cases it has to be corrected in the source (player) because the Elite can't correct it?

[Turbe]

.
D-Nice, I guess I have to ask then. Is this voltage problem inherent to all 9Gs? If so is it a design flaw, as such? Please don't beat me up for asking, remember I own a 1150HD and a 111FD! ;)
9G Elites, Signature Series and KRPs as they are the only ones that have those specific A/V modes.

[tony22]

...but it still leads to the questions - is this a design flaw that did not exist in the 8G? And is correcting it at the source the only way to fix it?

If we are in ISF mode, can the controls available in ISF deal with it? :confused:

Sorry if I sound like an idiot. Just wait until I actually get my codes - then you'll be sorry I bought ControlCAL! :devil:

[petmic10]

Above white is not the biggest deal and can be corrected in most
players if the controls are there.

Most, if not all source material does not have any information above
white, with your rare exception. Basically, all the information in the
source falls in the range of 16-235(video level), you would be hard
pressed to find any material that had info above white.

:cool:

[SamS]

Most, if not all source material does not have any information above
white, with your rare exception. Basically, all the information in the
source falls in the range of 16-235(video level), you would be hard
pressed to find any material that had info above white.

:cool:

Well, that's what I thought too, but Stacey Spears led me to understand differently.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16475585#post16475585