I ran D-Nice's breakin settings for the 1st 150 hours on this panel, then used his Pure settings for the next 200 hours.
I activated ISFDay / Night / Auto with ControlCal. I have set ISFDay for D6500 and use this setting for most of my viewing. ISFNight has been calibrated to D5700 and is used for black and white content. Auto has been calibrated to D7200 and is used primarily for sports.
these are the settings I've ended up with using CalMan, the CalMan generator, and my Display2 meter. I've attached the Calman report at the bottom.
Note that I had to make some adjustments to the gamma settings. I also found my set would not tollerate a contrast setting higher than 36 without corrupting the gamma and luminence, and clipping blue at 80%.
Further, on my panel, any attempt to adjust the primary colors to the CIE chart, corrupted both gamma, and grayscale, so I left the primaries alone. If anyone has had experience with adjusting the primaries, and keeping a flat greyscale feel free to reply here or pm me.
I can say the 1st thing I noticed when I activated the ISFDay mode was an increase in light output, and more punch to the picture.
After the calibration I can tell you there seems to be more depth of field (almost a 3D effect) in the picture.
This was a great investment, and I'm more than pleased with the resulting ISF modes.
Feel free to comment on this calibration.
Turbe
02-03-2009, 08:35 AM
:thumbsup:
Why don't you post your isf Night and Auto Settings with your CalMAN reports in this Thread too? :D
vega
02-03-2009, 08:43 AM
:thumbsup:
Why don't you post your isf Night and Auto Settings with your CalMAN reports in this Thread too? :D
ISFNight and ISFAuto still need a little tweaking. I'll be sure to post them when they are complete, along with my Pure and Movie settings.
sillysally
02-04-2009, 01:49 AM
Vega, you are improving. However you still have a way to go.
As I have told you before you should start from scratch. Also try using 1976 for your gray scale then after you take a 100% white reading switch over to 1994 for the rest of your gamut.
Try using 2.2 for your gamma target. And stay as close as possible to your target.
Make sure your levels are set to; Digital @ 16,235 and Voltage @ 7.5 IRE, NTSC
Have you already tried Power Function.
I don't think your settings will stay true with how you have adjusted your 9pt gamma. That is one of the reasons you are having a hard time with your color gamut.
As far as adjusting your primares and secondary(P/S), you may want to play with those controls when you are running your gray scale. That way you can see the direct impact each color has on your gray scale. However in any case when adjusting your gamut you don't want to make a large change to any P/S.
Also don't forget that after you set your color gamut you should touch up your gray scale.
The good news is that you are learning and you will be a good DIY calibrator and really reap all the benefits of a wonderful display that you have. :thumbsup:
vega
02-04-2009, 07:06 AM
thanks sillysally,
I did start from scratch by resetting the ISFDay mode from Control Cal. I have CalMan set for Power function, Digital 16 235, 7.5 IRE. I moved the gamma target to 2.25 as this seems to be as close as I can get. 2.25 to 2.28.
You recommend using 1976 for delta calculation, for greyscale. I'm guessing I should change to 1994 for 100% white when measuring p/s, then switch back to 1976.
The first readings showed clipping of the blue, which I corrected by reducing the contrast. The resulting gamma was 1.86 average. I changed the 9pt gamma to -1 for all which moved the gamma to 2.27-2.28, but exhibited a curvy line for the red tracking. The gamma changes I made brought the delta E down to < 1 from 2 to 4.
I have rerun the greyscale twice since finishing, and see very subtle change, much the same as taking 2 sets of readings back to back.
When I tried to adjust the primaries, a small move of -1 or -2 on the green made no change on the CIE chart, minimal change on the delta E for green, but corrupted the green tracking, and gamma greyscale. Moving blue to +1 or +2 resulted in Blue clipping at 80% up.
I am sure to let the panel warm up for a minimum of 30 minutes fullscreen video before I start, and the i1 is hanging in front of the panel @ 1" from the face centered.
I can easily reset the ISFDay and start again, or start over using ISFNight, but what would I change in the work flow? methodology?
thanks
vega
vega
02-04-2009, 04:50 PM
I reset the ISFNight in Control Cal. There is a difference between ISFDay and ISFNight gamma curves, @1.8 and @2.2.
the reset is just taking measurements with no changes after resetting.
the subsequent runs have the changes documented in the data box at the top of the pages.
this is as good as I can get the RGB tracking and gamma without moving some of the lower gamma points.
the Delta E look good, but I can do better, which you can see from my ISFDay run in the 1st post. Should I be working toward improving the greyscale, or move on to the P/S?
sillysally
02-04-2009, 05:28 PM
thanks sillysally,
I did start from scratch by resetting the ISFDay mode from Control Cal. I have CalMan set for Power function, Digital 16 235, 7.5 IRE. I moved the gamma target to 2.25 as this seems to be as close as I can get. 2.25 to 2.28.
You recommend using 1976 for delta calculation, for greyscale. I'm guessing I should change to 1994 for 100% white when measuring p/s, then switch back to 1976.
The first readings showed clipping of the blue, which I corrected by reducing the contrast. The resulting gamma was 1.86 average. I changed the 9pt gamma to -1 for all which moved the gamma to 2.27-2.28, but exhibited a curvy line for the red tracking. The gamma changes I made brought the delta E down to < 1 from 2 to 4.
I have rerun the greyscale twice since finishing, and see very subtle change, much the same as taking 2 sets of readings back to back.
When I tried to adjust the primaries, a small move of -1 or -2 on the green made no change on the CIE chart, minimal change on the delta E for green, but corrupted the green tracking, and gamma greyscale. Moving blue to +1 or +2 resulted in Blue clipping at 80% up.
I am sure to let the panel warm up for a minimum of 30 minutes fullscreen video before I start, and the i1 is hanging in front of the panel @ 1" from the face centered.
I can easily reset the ISFDay and start again, or start over using ISFNight, but what would I change in the work flow? methodology?
thanks
vega
"You recommend using 1976 for delta calculation, for greyscale. I'm guessing I should change to 1994 for 100% white when measuring p/s, then switch back to 1976."
Yes use 1976 for gray scale and also for your first reading in P/S of 100% white. Mater of fact I use 1976 from the start, I also use D-Nice work flow.
After your first reading for P/S of 100% then switch over to 1994 for all your P/S readings including 75% white.
I guess that you are using your computer to generate your gray scale and color patterns. When I calibrate, I use my BD/HD players and AVS-HD Blue Ray for all patterns, or AVS-HD-HD for color patterns only. I use DVE HD Basics for gray patterns. I only use my 141 for movies, so I have no need to use anything but my BD/HD players to calibrate.
When you say "Moving blue to +1 or +2 resulted in Blue clipping at 80% up." I am guessing that you are seeing the clipping in your RGB level tracking. Blue is dropping off starting at 80% and at 100% is the lowest that Blue has dropped off. If that's the case I would guess that moving Blue +1 or +2 is not the real problem , the real problem lies probably in your RGB H/L settings. Or in your gamma 9pt settings. The same goes for Green, even though I try to stay away from moving green in P/S or RGB H/L.
Also remember that when you set your master color/saturation control that should help in bringing your P/S closer to were it should be. When I set my master color control at the end, I take a reading for all my 75% P/S each time I add or subtract to see where my primary and secondary are. And balance out for the best over all readings.
Keep one thing in mind, and that is I have a 141. And the 141 has better gray scale RGB H/L adjustments. When I use RGB H/L and use a +2 for say blue H/L, that would be like if you use a +1 for blue H/L. So in theory the 141 should be able to achieve a better gray scale.
Like I said I use D-Nice work flow.
Also I find that using your 9pt gamma settings cause more problems that it helps.
sillysally
02-04-2009, 05:35 PM
I reset the ISFNight in Control Cal. There is a difference between ISFDay and ISFNight gamma curves, @1.8 and @2.2.
the reset is just taking measurements with no changes after resetting.
the subsequent runs have the changes documented in the data box at the top of the pages.
this is as good as I can get the RGB tracking and gamma without moving some of the lower gamma points.
the Delta E look good, but I can do better, which you can see from my ISFDay run in the 1st post. Should I be working toward improving the greyscale, or move on to the P/S?
Yes you keep getting better and better. I am not sure why you want to use D75 and not D65 but to each there own.
vega
02-04-2009, 07:13 PM
Yes you keep getting better and better. I am not sure why you want to use D75 and not D65 but to each there own.
I'm not using D75, I see it in the CalMan Header, but I've double checked the settings, and it is D65. I have set ISFAuto to D75 for sports.
vega
02-07-2009, 09:36 AM
took another set of readings last night (hard to get time to calibrate, family gets upset if I calibrate during prime time)
I have moved the primaries as far as suggested, (my current settings are in the top box) and see little difference on the CIE chart. Every small change on the Primaries (+/- 1) has a large impact on the greyscale. Changing the color level lower moves the blue and red farther away from the target, higher takes them closer, but the DeltaE gets larger.
Any suggestions on what to try next.
thanks
vega
02-08-2009, 09:25 AM
tried a different approach last night, set rgb as close as possible, move the color controls, readjust the rgb.
I'm not sure if the greyscale has improved any, but there is little difference in the CIE.
One thing is obvious, every setting in the menu affects the others.
vega
02-09-2009, 12:11 PM
took a couple more tries at reigning in the p/s. looking at the previous runs, I didn't notice until last night that the saturation level was moving higher as the greyscale was getting closer. I moved the color setting down from +3 and found the CIE chart is getting closer. (it did have an impact on the greyscale)
I have not tried moving the tint control, but my guess is it will do more than just move the secondaries. I'll try this if I have time tonight.
My settings for ControlCal are at the top of the 1st page in the report header, as always.
sillysally
02-09-2009, 05:03 PM
Raise Blue low +1.
Master tint control I would leave alone. That's what your CSM (gamut) is for.
Also you may want to try and lower your contrast.
Example. My settings with contrast set at +22 will work even if there are lights on in the room. And yes I do say ISF mode night. But as I am sure you know now ISF mode Night and Day is just 1 of two ISF mode memory's.
My point is don't get hung up on night and day settings. Play with your contrast and bright settings.
Also when you are using your CMS controls, try and balance your x/y numbers for any changes you make. Don't just focus on one or the other.
And talking about pop using a lower contrast setting. I was viewing Natural Born Killers on BD last night. I was using my BD-51 and settings, and for the first time I was really drawn into the movie. The reason is simple. For the first time I was viewing that film as the director intended. What happens is you move form the horrifying visuals into the minds of the people and how they view what is going on around them.
My point here is that once you do get all your settings balanced and as close as possible to the best numbers for your display, you will know why you worked so hard to learn how to calibrate. :D
And you are learning. ;)
LBDiver
02-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Although the use of the master tint control is not suggested, I found that by using a light adjustment of tint on my display resulted in better results. Yellow was near spot on after preliminary greyscale, but Cyan and Magenta were quite out. By using tint I was able to average out the dE between the secondaries, and required much smaller adjustments within CM to reach final. My display acted more predictably and linearly to an adjustment of tint, which was not true when using the CM solely for adjustment.
vega
02-13-2009, 09:07 AM
Raise Blue low +1.
that made blue jump too far, DeltaE from 10 to 50 was 6+
Master tint control I would leave alone. That's what your CSM (gamut) is for.
OK
Also you may want to try and lower your contrast.
I tried last night, I have attached the pdf. My goal is to have at least 42fL for one mode, and 30 for the other. Right now I'm working on the higher setting.
Example. My settings with contrast set at +22 will work even if there are lights on in the room. And yes I do say ISF mode night. But as I am sure you know now ISF mode Night and Day is just 1 of two ISF mode memory's.
with contrast set to +22, what is your light output in fL?
My point is don't get hung up on night and day settings. Play with your contrast and bright settings.
I do realize they are the same with different tags, and use them as such.
Also when you are using your CMS controls, try and balance your x/y numbers for any changes you make. Don't just focus on one or the other.
it seems to me the CMS is just a tint control for each setting, and the best I'll be able to do is twist the primaries close. The secondaries can be spot on on the chart, cyan and magenta do have high DE's even with their location spot on.
And talking about pop using a lower contrast setting. I was viewing Natural Born Killers on BD last night. I was using my BD-51 and settings, and for the first time I was really drawn into the movie. The reason is simple. For the first time I was viewing that film as the director intended. What happens is you move form the horrifying visuals into the minds of the people and how they view what is going on around them.
My point here is that once you do get all your settings balanced and as close as possible to the best numbers for your display, you will know why you worked so hard to learn how to calibrate. :D
And you are learning. ;)
thanks sillysally, LBDiver
sillysally
02-13-2009, 04:02 PM
LBDiver
Your gray scale looks very nice. However your Gamut and Delta E 1994 has problems. The problem may be caused because of your D2 getting to hot by the time you work on your CMS (P/S).
As I think you know, I use 1976 for my gray scale and my 100% reading for my color readings. Then I switch over to 1994 to set my Gamut and P/S, also my master color control.
However the good news is you keep getting better. :)
How does you picture look using your settings for your report?
To asked "with contrast set to +22, what is your light output in fL?"
Look at my attachment below. This report is for my new Pioneer BD-09 and my 141.
vega
02-13-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't think heat is an issue for the D2, as it sits 2" away from the screen. what I will try is to run the color gamut 1st thing and see if there is a significant difference.
I am aware you change the DeltaE calculations during your runs, one thing that I'm unsure of inside CalMan is, if you place a 1994 and a 1976 DeltaE chart on the template, are both used without changing the selection in the options menu? I have assumed this is the case. What you see in the pdf's I post is all one template, 2 pages, 1 greyscale, 2 gamut.
If I can I'll make another run tonight after everyone goes to bed.
thanks
vega
ps nice looking calibration charts. how far did you have to move the CMS to get your gamut results?
sillysally
02-14-2009, 03:13 AM
If I understand correctly what you are saying about 1994, 1976, then yes you are correct.
One other thing to try. Let your D2 using the holder rest on your screen and see if that makes a differences.
What source are you using to generate your patterns.
The reason why I am asking is because of what I have seen using different BD/HD players as my source. The best one of all for a source by far is my new Pioneer BD-09. The picture that I am getting using HD (1080P) is just amazing. Everything is spot on. :thumbsup:
Also when you look at my settings, understand that the 141 and 151 are different. See link for my settings.
If I understand correctly what you are saying about 1994, 1976, then yes you are correct.
One other thing to try. Let your D2 using the holder rest on your screen and see if that makes a differences.
I have had the D2 everywhere from 1 foot away to almost touching the screen, and found no real difference.
What source are you using to generate your patterns.
The reason why I am asking is because of what I have seen using different BD/HD players as my source. The best one of all for a source by far is my new Pioneer BD-09. The picture that I am getting using HD (1080P) is just amazing. Everything is spot on. :thumbsup:
the calibration for my blu-ray input, the blu-ray is the source. it is very slow changing using either DVEHD or the AVS disk. for the inputs that have my DVR, DVD player, OTA etc, I've been using the CalMan generator at 15% windows, fed through HDMI from my laptop. This automates the process, and also is a lot faster. Derek over at CalMan assured me the patterns are accurate.
Also when you look at my settings, understand that the 141 and 151 are different. See link for my settings.
thanks for the encouragement. I worked on the calibration for over 3 hours early this morning, and could not improve the gamut. I have several different ways to get the greyscale close, but all result in little or no change in the gamut readings.
I had an idea that there may be something wrong with the D2, so I rechecked my Panasonic set I calibrated 3 months ago, and all seems well there.
I'm going to try a different tack next run, and adjust the gamut 1st, then go back and forth between greyscale and gamut. D-Nice recommends not moving the CMS more than +/- 2, but from what I see on my set, I'll have to make some larger adjustments, or accept the gamut where it falls.
thanks
vega
vega
02-16-2009, 10:15 PM
I've finally made some progress with the greyscale. The lower stimulus levels are beginning to even out.
Color gamut still eludes me.
Am I missing something here? Is this the best this particular panel is capable of?
I'm at a loss here, and have no idea what to try next. This has been the most difficult set to calibrate of all my computer monitors, and tv sets, 2 plasma, 1 LCD, 1 DLP, 2 CRT's, 3 CRT PC monitors, and 2 LCD PC monitors.
This set seems to have each control make a big impact on the others, more so than most of the others I've worked with. eg move the Blue CMS +1 and the lower end of the greyscale takes a major dive.
vega
02-17-2009, 07:17 AM
I have read somewhere that there may be issues with some Display 2's and the 151FD, but cannot find the posts now. Anybody have links to these posts?
How would I be able to determine if this is my case?
I have access to a SpiderII, but these have issues with CalMan, which is why I purchased the Display 2.
thanks Turbe, do you think I'd be better off using the Spyder? I have always given either meter 30+ minutes to warm up previous to taking measurements.
I have 2 runs taken, one with each meter, no changes made to any settings. Looking at the results, you would not know these were the same set.
Turbe
02-17-2009, 11:21 AM
thanks Turbe, do you think I'd be better off using the Spyder?
No :D
NO ONE should be using a Spyder probe to calibrate a Kuro. They are the absolute worst.
Posted HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15504053&postcount=6406).
Hope u have a decent spyder. Both of mine are so inaccurate as to be unusable IMO.
Posted HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15927492#post15927492).
vega
02-17-2009, 12:04 PM
:thumbup: that's definitive enough! :thumbup:
I'll have to try to find out what is causing the large swings with minimal CMS adjustments. Any ideas?
vega
02-18-2009, 02:13 AM
made some changes by moving the Display2 3" away from the panel, it was 1". the big swings in the readings have gone, making adjustments has become more predictable.
I ran ISFNight and ISFDay with some small changes. The final settings are at the top of the reports.
Is there room for improvement? Or is this as good as it will get?
thanks
vega
LBDiver
02-21-2009, 11:13 AM
In my opinion that's as good as it gets with the D2. You are within the dE of the sensor itself. If you look at the thread where Wolfy ran multiple greyscale tests comparing the i1 to the D2, it showed that when his calibrated display was showing dE of 2 using the D2, that when subsequently tested using the i1 the same settings produced dE of 1. That's why I posted in that thread it would be good if we could come to a consensus regarding what is achievable using the D2. So people like yourself and others aren't chasing a ghost. The question is whether there exists the same correlation when it comes to color accuracy, ie your display is actually closer to the standard than it's showing using the D2. It is possible that the D2 is actually mis-reading colors and therefore your underlying calibration will actually be off, rather than more accurate, if subsequently tested with an i1.
Those are my thoughts on it.
vega
02-21-2009, 12:33 PM
maybe Derek or Bill at CalMan have already done this, and built it into their software. they are as far as I know the only ones who got accuracy with the D2 on plasmas.
jmschnur
03-25-2009, 09:48 AM
My grey scale and yours are rather close with different meters and programs That is reassuring. I use a Minolta CS-1000 with Color Facts 6.x.
I get a gamma of 2.19 or so for my isf nights settings.
I have not played hard with the CMS yet. D-Nice's settigns get me close. The color settings may be a high in my settings.
When was your set made? Mine was made in Dec 2008.
