Most Users Posting here have 8G Pioneer Plasma Displays.
Posts #2 - #36 have been copied from the Non-Public Threads.
If any of the Beta Testers would like me to copy specific Posts from the Beta Threads into this Thread, please let me know.
Wolfy
05-09-2008, 11:10 AM
I will post my impressions of CalMAN as soon as I have had time to do some tests. At the latest towards the end of the weekend or very early next week. I have some work to do on the car and other stuff that gets in the way.
One thing I can say up front is that CalMAN is great to work with, easy to design your own set of controls to follow your workflow and the tabbed design makes it very easy to keep track of your ongoing calibration and all the data. I'm beginning to see the reason for the cost simply based on how adaptable it is, but unless it means more repeatable results it won't mean much in the end...
Still keeping my fingers crossed that this software will solve the problem some of us have been having.
Blutarsky
05-14-2008, 04:40 AM
GorGorBey,
it would be nice if you could post a .chc containing the measures in continuos mode, from 10 to 100, to appreciate how the i1pro beheaves.
Particullarly I'm interested in the "hops" up and down...
MAybe the optimum should be to perform some free measures showing at least 20 measures per each gray pattern (200 measures total).
Also the "day after" measurements would be good!
GorGorBey
05-14-2008, 09:10 AM
GorGorBey,
it would be nice if you could post a .chc containing the measures in continuos mode, from 10 to 100, to appreciate how the i1pro beheaves.
Particullarly I'm interested in the "hops" up and down...
MAybe the optimum should be to perform some free measures showing at least 20 measures per each gray pattern (200 measures total).
Also the "day after" measurements would be good!
I will do my best to have a two days after measure tonight...For the rest I will see how the continuous mode is working...
Wolfy
05-14-2008, 10:39 AM
Just to let those interested know.
I have now made all my measurements and collected all the data from trying to compare HCFR vs CalMAN with regards to i1 D2/LT and plasma.
Now it's left to present the data which takes some work. I will post my results asap and since I've had little to no time to analyze it myself I will mostly post the raw data and we'll see what we will see, but now I'm going to watch the Hockey WC quarterfinals :D
Blutarsky
05-14-2008, 02:04 PM
I will do my best to have a two days after measure tonight...For the rest I will see how the continuous mode is working...
you could post the 200 measurements .chc?
GorGorBey
05-14-2008, 04:01 PM
Here is the measure two days after....You can compare with the old one if you want. You'll see that these measures are very close...
The I1PRO is definitely a must :).
Futhermore it means also that the ColorHcfr tool is not in fault.
I don't have time now to do additionnal tests. I will post values later...
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 02:18 AM
Here is the measure two days after....You can compare with the old one if you want. You'll see that these measures are very close...
The I1PRO is definitely a must :).
Futhermore it means also that the ColorHcfr tool is not in fault.
I don't have time now to do additionnal tests. I will post values later...
Fantastic, I'm complitely astonished! That is what I was looking for!
Neat, constant readings: the grayscale is virtually identical, don't mention gamma & luminance curve.... what a meter!
Time to make a decision! I wonder why I didn't take in account seriously UMR words about the Display LT!
Thanks a lot. If you can post the 200 measurements (20 per gray pattern from 10 to 100) it would be very kind.
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 02:47 AM
Fantastic, I'm complitely astonished! That is what I was looking for!
Neat, constant readings: the grayscale is virtually identical, don't mention gamma & luminance curve.... what a meter!
Time to make a decision! I wonder why I didn't take in account seriously UMR words about the Display LT!
Thanks a lot. If you can post the 200 measurements (20 per gray pattern from 10 to 100) it would be very kind.
:):)
I bought my OEM I1PRO at Spectracal : The prize is 700$ but dollar is low...
It's expensive but you don't need to buy their tool...
I take some measure yesterday in continuous mode (50 IRE and 60 IRE).
The results very identical 90% of the time... For the rest, It was negligible...
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 02:57 AM
Please post that 200 measurements!
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 02:59 AM
It looks like you can buy it with a 200$ rebate at 529$....
Wolfy
05-15-2008, 03:21 AM
Very interesting, here are some results for comaprison:
My results using a i1 Display 2/LT from a reference measurement and 2 days later, using CalMAN:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, grayscale, day1:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day1-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day1.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, grayscale, day3:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day3-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day3.png)
(click to see a larger image)
My results using a i1 Display 2/LT from a reference measurement and 2 days later, using HCFR:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT-HCFR-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT-HCFR.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, where day 1 is reference (dotted line):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-gamma-HCFR-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-gamma-HCFR.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Grayscale, where day 1 is reference (dotted lines):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-HCFR-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-HCFR.png)
(click to see a larger image)
GorGorBey's results using a i1 Pro from a reference measurement and 2 days later:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, where day 1 is reference (dotted line):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-gamma-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-gamma.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Grayscale, where day 1 is reference (dotted lines):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-grayscale-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-grayscale.png)
(click to see a larger image)
------
Clearly a noticeable difference and hence we don't have to wonder where the "error" when comparing results from one day to the next comes from. It's from the Display 2/LT.
Having said that, the difference in reported x, y from Display 2/LT isn't what I would call horrible, it's only in the order of 0.003 at the most, i.e. within specs.
Edit: Added more comparisons for completeness.
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 05:25 AM
Very interesting, here are some results for comaprison:
My results using a i1 Display 2/LT from a reference measurement and 2 days later, using CalMAN:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, grayscale, day1:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day1-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day1.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, grayscale, day3:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day3-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-gamma-day3.png)
(click to see a larger image)
My results using a i1 Display 2/LT from a reference measurement and 2 days later, using HCFR:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT-HCFR-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT-HCFR.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, where day 1 is reference (dotted line):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-gamma-HCFR-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-gamma-HCFR.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Grayscale, where day 1 is reference (dotted lines):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-HCFR-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Display2.LT.-grayscale-HCFR.png)
(click to see a larger image)
GorGorBey's results using a i1 Pro from a reference measurement and 2 days later:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Gamma, where day 1 is reference (dotted line):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-gamma-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-gamma.png)
(click to see a larger image)
Grayscale, where day 1 is reference (dotted lines):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-grayscale-small.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/display2/i1Pro-grayscale.png)
(click to see a larger image)
------
Clearly a noticeable difference and hence we don't have to wonder where the "error" when comparing results from one day to the next comes from. It's from the Display 2/LT.
Having said that, the difference in reported x, y from Display 2/LT isn't what I would call horrible, it's only in the order of 0.003 at the most, i.e. within specs.
Edit: Added more comparisons for completeness.
Wolfy....There is an error...the Gamma curves has been mixed...
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 05:30 AM
Wolfy I think the GorGorBey Gamma-HCFR chart is wrong.
The 2 .chc he posted are identical from the gamma & luminance perspective...
About the Display LT we have some fluctuations....
Now probabily someone will state that those fluctations are marginal....but maybe it's time we shall start to think if it's worth it to buy the i1pro..... more constant more precise....factory recalibratable every 18 months......
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 05:36 AM
Wolfy I think the GorGorBey Gamma-HCFR chart is wrong.
The 2 .chc he posted are identical from the gamma & luminance perspective...
About the Display LT we have some fluctuations....
Now probabily someone will state that those fluctations are marginal....but maybe it's time we shall start to think if it's worth it to buy the i1pro..... more constant more precise....factory recalibratable every 18 months......
I agree....
Yesterday night I tried to optimize (last one) the DVD Input...It has been done in REC601....
This time the gamma is perfect...
The RVB Curve is still ok
The Gamut becomes excellent...
I will do again a comparison tonight and If you want I will post them....
My objective tonight is to calibrate Home Gallery and DTV with the new beta….
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 05:46 AM
Maybe tonight you could take some time to perform the 200 measurements.... :D
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 06:09 AM
Maybe tonight you could take some time to perform the 200 measurements.... :D
In the comparaison file (measure two days after in Combined histogram for free measure) you will be able to have continuous measures at 50 IRE and 60 IRE
Just ensure to have Luminance active to know when I changed from 50 to 60...
It was a secret bonus :p
Wolfy
05-15-2008, 06:11 AM
Wolfy....There is an error...the Gamma curves has been mixed...Yup, should have noticed that. That's what happens when doing several things at once, hehe. Have been fixed now.
Wolfy
05-15-2008, 06:22 AM
...About the Display LT we have some fluctuations....
Now probabily someone will state that those fluctations are marginal....but maybe it's time we shall start to think if it's worth it to buy the i1pro..... more constant more precise....factory recalibratable every 18 months......Well, compare the HCFR results to the CalMAN results. Clearly less deviation from reference with CalMAN, so Derek may be absolutely correct in his statements. However, CalMAN or any other can't make the sensor any better than it is. It all seems to fit perfectly well within the limitations of the hardware.
From my measurements the fluctuations are marginal, less than the capability in the sensor itself and less than human comprehension and I strongly believe that you can't just watch numbers or a graph as means of telling the PQ.
Of course, like you I am frustrated with not getting the exact same result from only the day before, but if you look at the specs of the i1 Display 2/LT it is not that surprising. It would be extremely interesting to see similar results from measurements on a LCD TV. Then and only then can one conclude if using Display 2/LT to take measurements on plasma is the main issue.
For better results, indeed a i1 Pro seems the best option for calibration hardware for an enthusiast... at least as far as measuring on plasma :)
Turbe
05-15-2008, 09:01 AM
:):)
I bought my OEM I1PRO at Spectracal : The prize is 700$ but dollar is low...
It's expensive but you don't need to buy their tool...
It looks like you can buy it with a 200$ rebate at 529$....
Yes, You can buy the I1 Pro for $529 (with $200 Rebate). If you decide to buy, please use the link in the Post below.
Then and only then can one conclude if using Display 2/LT to take measurements on plasma is the main issue.
Moreover we don't know where those fluctuations are really happening.
We know that we can push the dE into the <3 boundaries (in HCFR)..... but how is the measurement really copeing with that +/-4 dE of the Display LT?
Is it really a 2/3 dE curve we are looking at, or is it a 6/7 dE?
We will never know, and we will never be sure how to keep the meter in constant conditions......
Turbe
05-15-2008, 09:11 AM
I guess another question would be, with the I1 pro, should you purchase CalMAN (or will ColorHCFR take care of you)?
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 09:25 AM
I guess another question would be, with the I1 pro, should you purchase CalMAN (or will ColorHCFR take care of you)?
I will say...Save your money and use ColorHCFR :).
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 09:27 AM
In the comparaison file (measure two days after in Combined histogram for free measure) you will be able to have continuous measures at 50 IRE and 60 IRE
Just ensure to have Luminance active to know when I changed from 50 to 60...
It was a secret bonus :p
Blutarsky, Did you see the continuous value in the file Measure after 2 days...
Turbe, I just downloaded Beta15 and launched the software (from the office).
I was able to see Tuner A,B,C...
What does it mean ? TV for A, DTV for B
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 09:56 AM
Blutarsky, Did you see the continuous value in the file Measure after 2 days...
Yes, are they at the same IRE level or....? Very interested in the low IRE side....
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 09:59 AM
Yes, are they at the same IRE level or....? Very interested in the low IRE side....
no 50 IRE and 60 IRE...You should be able to see a big increase in the luminance graph...
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 10:02 AM
Of course, shame on me! :o
.... need the low ones also!!!!:cool:
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 10:03 AM
Ah no......... They're all on 60
GorGorBey
05-15-2008, 10:21 AM
You should have both IRE (50 IRE and 60 IRE)
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 10:23 AM
Will check out.....
Wolfy
05-15-2008, 11:19 AM
Moreover we don't know where those fluctuations are really happening.
We know that we can push the dE into the <3 boundaries (in HCFR)..... but how is the measurement really copeing with that +/-4 dE of the Display LT?
Is it really a 2/3 dE curve we are looking at, or is it a 6/7 dE?
We will never know, and we will never be sure how to keep the meter in constant conditions......I guess so, but then that can be said about i1 Pro too. It's a low end sensor compared to the really sensitive ones which runs into the thousands of dollars price range.
You can see that CalMAN seems to reduce dE from measurements compared to HCFR using a Display 2 and i1 Pro even more so using HCFR and perhaps yet even more so using a i1Pro and CalMAN (I'd love to try that combo ;)).
I know that CalMAN has a lot more to offer than HCFR that goes beyond sensor support, but then it should be considering the cost - not unlike Display 2/LT vs i1 Pro. I'll write about my impressions using both in the software section eventually.
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 11:33 AM
I guess so, but then that can be said about i1 Pro too.
UMR, that we all know seems to be a very picky person, is praiseing the i1pro with all kind of devices, and never read a complain about it.
Moreover in some of his posts he seems arguing that he feels more comfortable with the i1pro than his PR-670!!!
Wolfy
05-15-2008, 11:51 AM
UMR, that we all know seems to be a very picking person, is praiseing the i1pro with all kind of devices, and never read a complain about it.
Moreover in some of his posts he seems arguing that he feels more comfortable with the i1pro than his PR-670!!!Really, the posts I read from him seemed to state that nothing except his PR-670 Spectroradiometer would do. :D
I'll have to read up on his posts. Do you have any link(s) where he is doing the prasing, I would be very interested to read more about it.
Blutarsky
05-15-2008, 12:49 PM
Really, the posts I read from him seemed to state that nothing except his PR-670 Spectroradiometer would do. :D
I'll have to read up on his posts. Do you have any link(s) where he is doing the prasing, I would be very interested to read more about it.
Most Users Posting here have 8G Pioneer Plasma Displays.
Most of the Posts above have been copied from the Non-Public Threads.
If any of the Beta Testers would like me to copy specific Posts from the Beta Threads into this Thread, please let me know.
Turbe
05-15-2008, 04:31 PM
QUOTED BY PERMISSION
I checked out Wolfy's post there. If I look at this graph you posted here:
http://www.controlcal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30&d=1210892536
And then compare it to the i1pro graph Wolfy posted for comparison:
http://www.controlcal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31&d=1210892546
The i1pro is clearly better. Nobody is denying that, and it should be because it's significantly more expensive! But the results are only noticeable on a graph, andI don't watch TV on a graph!!!
It's all about perspective. You may look at those graphs and say, "I'm not satisfied with that accuracy", which is fine, go buy the fancier pro device. But I look and that and say, "gee, the D2LT performs really well for a fraction of the cost, certainly getting it close enough that I could never see the difference even under direct comparison. That's good enough for me!"
But to declare the D2LT to be useless for plasma is a massive exaggeration, when the graphs and tests you are referencing show it to be pretty darn good. We're talking about the difference between 99% of the way there and 99.9% of the way there. If pretty darn good isn't good enough for you, then by all means, buy the nicer device.
derekjsmith
05-15-2008, 05:31 PM
I guess another question would be, with the I1 pro, should you purchase CalMAN (or will ColorHCFR take care of you)?
I will say...Save your money and use ColorHCFR :).
With our new i1Pro pricing the meter itself is now only $599 and with CalMAN Spectro software is $699. So what do you get for that $100 more.
Not to turn this in to debate of which is better ColorHCFR vs. CalMAN. But ColorHCFR support for the i1Pro is basic and not even in the same class as ours. We support the i1Pro with all three modes direct, ambient and reflectance. ColorHCFR only supports direct sorry for you guys that want to do readings from the output of a projector or other ambient type readings. Our low light handlers for the i1Pro are very advanced and well beyond anything else on the market. With ColorHCFR they just take a number of readings and average them, good readings, bad readings, errors and all so it’s really hit or miss as to what you will get. With CalMAN we take 10 to 20 readings depending on the light level and run them through statistical analyses to find the clusters, deviations and outliers from the clusters. As a result our low light readings can take up to 30 seconds just like the high end Spectros on the market, there is a reason they take 30 seconds. Our data from the low light handlers for the i1Pro is stable down to 0.05 cd/m^2. Very important when trying to calibrate these new displays that are approaching absolute black.
Turbe
05-15-2008, 05:44 PM
We support the i1Pro with all three modes direct, ambient and reflectance. ColorHCFR only supports direct sorry for you guys that want to do readings from the output of a projector or other ambient type readings.
I didn't know this, in fact, I've never read this though I have not even close to reading all the Posts available concerning ColorHCFR (or CalMAN). This is a requirement for me (FP support).
...and Greetings Derek, welcome to the Site. Thank You for accepting my invitation! :D
Is there anything you can add concerning CalMAN's special handling of the Display 2/LT? I know there are some on the fence to purchase or upgrade to the I1 Pro.
Turbe
05-15-2008, 05:57 PM
UMR, that we all know seems to be a very picky person, is praiseing the i1pro with all kind of devices, and never read a complain about it.
Moreover in some of his posts he seems arguing that he feels more comfortable with the i1pro than his PR-670!!!
Interesting, I wonder if UMR is actually using the I1 Pro even today for his work...?
derekjsmith
05-15-2008, 06:02 PM
I didn't know this, in fact, I've never read this though I have not even close to reading all the Posts available concerning ColorHCFR (or CalMAN). This is a requirement for me (FP support).
...and Greetings Derek, welcome to the Site. Thank You for accepting my invitation! :D
Is there anything you can add concerning CalMAN's special handling of the Display 2/LT? I know there are some on the fence to purchase or upgrade to the I1 Pro.
Yes I will post more detail info on our handling of the Display2 later today. Just a quick note that x-rite has two different programs for developers, partners and OEM’s. We are an OEM so we have access to the hardware at a much lower level than just a partner does like ColorHCFR. As an OEM we can talk directly with the meter itself, its processor and eeprom. As a partner you only get access to a very basic interface and can only select three modes CRT, LCD and Ambient, since PDP is neither CRT or LCD this level of support does not work very well. In fact I find it very deceiving of ColorHCFR to add a Plasma option to the support list of modes when in reality they are only selecting CRT mode behind the scenes. More on all of this later.
derekjsmith
05-15-2008, 06:08 PM
Thanks blutarsky, never read those Posts..
Interesting, I wonder if UMR is actually using the I1 Pro even today for his work...?
UMR or Jeff used to be the only OEM of the i1Pro for years and had software written in excel to support it. At the time he used to rag on Cliff at Progressive Labs about his support for the TriStim from GMB and SIP. They had some horrible debates on which was better since neither at the time supported both types. Forward to 2008 and you will find that Jeff now puts down the i1Pro because in his opinion to calibrate you need a PR670.
As for SpectraCal and CalMAN it's all about choice. You can start out with a DisplayLT, advance to a i1Pro and in the end turn Pro and get a PR670 or a CS2000 while all at the same time using the same software.
Turbe
05-15-2008, 06:24 PM
UMR or Jeff used to be the only OEM of the i1Pro for years and had software written in excel to support it. At the time he used to rag on Cliff at Progressive Labs about his support for the TriStim from GMB and SIP. They had some horrible debates on which was better since neither at the time supported both types. Forward to 2008 and you will find that Jeff now puts down the i1Pro because in his opinion to calibrate you need a PR670. I will give you one guess on how he was able to afford a $30k meter, from the sales of the i1Pro he now puts down.
I know about his software, didn't know he had OEMed the meter and was a reseller.
They had some horrible debates
I need to find some past posts... :)
Turbe
05-15-2008, 06:44 PM
With CalMAN we take 10 to 20 readings depending on the light level and run them through statistical analyses to find the clusters, deviations and outliers from the clusters.
So, you are doing additional processing in addition to just increasing the number of samples (at low light levels)....!?!?
derekjsmith
05-15-2008, 08:08 PM
So, you are doing additional processing in addition to just increasing the number of samples (at low light levels)....!?!?
Yes it's all about the quality of data not the quantity. But you also need a large set of samples for statistical processing to work. In some cases nearly half of the samples will get discarded for one reason or another. This is one of the many reasons CalMAN is not free nor will be. Anyone can write a VB app to take raw XYZ data from a meter and put it in to charts, the basic formulas are not that hard either. Where I spend most of our time is in making sure we get the most out of the hardware we support, it takes an enormous amount of time, you also need access to more than one of each meter, access to most of the common display types and a knowledge of laboratory testing procedures and methods with practical experience. In one of my previous life’s I worked for a MIL spec test lab writing test procedures and programs both on the engineering and QA sides for testing digital and analog systems, talk about standards peoples lives depended on it.
derekjsmith
05-16-2008, 01:53 AM
Yes I will post more detail info on our handling of the Display2 later today. Just a quick note that x-rite has two different programs for developers, partners and OEM’s. We are an OEM so we have access to the hardware at a much lower level than just a partner does like ColorHCFR. As an OEM we can talk directly with the meter itself, its processor and eeprom. As a partner you only get access to a very basic interface and can only select three modes CRT, LCD and Ambient, since PDP is neither CRT or LCD this level of support does not work very well. In fact I find it very deceiving of ColorHCFR to add a Plasma option to the support list of modes when in reality they are only selecting CRT mode behind the scenes.
With the basic support that ColorHCFR has for the Display2 by only being able to select the display type CRT, LCD or Ambient and for PDP you want the CRT calibration table since PDP is phosphor based. The problem with this approach is in CRT mode it also wants to sync with the CRT scan rate which a PDP does not have at least not in the same way a CRT does. So what happens at some point is the meter will switch from CRT mode to LCD mode when the luminance is high enough and it has figured out it's not a CRT. The problem with the switch to LCD mode is you also get the LCD calibration table which now does not match up and you will get inconsistencies.
Our support for the Display2 is enhanced by our ability to control the meter at the direct hardware level something ColorHCFR can’t offer. This includes its internal calibration tables, integration timings, edge triggers and advanced error handling.
Since this thread was more about PDP and the Display2 I can say in my testing day to day on my Panasonic 9UK I get consistent results but my test methods are very detailed to get those results. Is the Display2 the end all for calibrating no it’s just the first rung in the ladder for meters. For those that want that last few percent of accuracy you need to look at an i1Pro using our advanced low light handling. And for those that want that last half a percent you need to look at a high end Spectro with the understanding they are very slow up to 2 minutes for a reading and have a ton of options and features to get it setup right.
GorGorBey
05-16-2008, 02:05 AM
With our new i1Pro pricing the meter itself is now only $599 and with CalMAN Spectro software is $699. So what do you get for that $100 more.
Oups...I bought one EOM Eye One Pro at spectracal 3 weeks ago and the price was $700 for the sensor alone....
It's not fair :(:(
If I know that I would have wait 3 weeks more to obtain the software for the same price...
Turbe
05-16-2008, 08:44 AM
3 weeks
It's not fair :(:(
Perhaps SpectraCal has a Policy in place to handle this. (?) I am sure they are eager to get ColorHCFR Users to upgrade to their Solution.. :D
derekjsmith
05-16-2008, 10:31 AM
Perhaps SpectraCal has a Policy in place to handle this. (?) I am sure they are eager to get ColorHCFR Users to upgrade to their Solution.. :D
We don’t make very much money on those meters. I will tell you that our margins are very low on those meters.
Recently we negotiated a better price from x-rite. When we received a better price from them, we passed the savings on to our customers.
So what about everyone who has bought from us in the past? When x-rite sends us new meters at a lower price, we can’t go back to everyone who has ever bought a meter from us in the past, and do something for them.
So in the world of electronics pricing is always subject to change usually down. If we did credit or adjust our prices after the fact in some cases we would loose money. We are not some large box store with huge margins that can offer post sales price protection we just don't have the margins. What we can guaranty is that when you buy from us you are getting the best price we have received from x-rite at that time. From our point of view the heavily discounted i1PhotoLT from BH with US rebate at $529 is losing money not just a thin margin but a negative one. Lastly this was not a planned price reduction it is only something we found out yesterday, so waiting any amount of time did not matter.
madkaw
05-16-2008, 04:09 PM
Finish calibration last night. Here are some settings if anyone wants to try them. 1ipro and Color HFCR.
Pioneer 150FD
Mode: Pure
Contrast: 34
Brightness: +2
Color; actual color is +8, I like to bump it to +11 for a little more saturation.
Tint: G2
Sharpness: -15 to -7 depending on content and preference
PC: Advanced, only if 24f, if not set it to Standard.
Text: Off
Intelligence: Off
Detail:
DRE: Off
BL: Off
ACl: Off
Enhancer: 2
Gamma: 2
Color:
RH: -1
GH: 0
BH: +3
RL: -1
GL: 0
BL: -2
CM:
R: -1
Y: +1
G: -2
C: -2
B: -1
M: -1
Color Space: 2
All noise: Off
Turbe
05-16-2008, 04:22 PM
madkaw, why didn't you use the ISF Memories and Controls?
How about posting your HCFR files? :D
Turbe
05-19-2008, 08:46 AM
Hi all,
I've started the onerous process of trying to calibrate my recently acquired Pro110FD. Similar to what others have experienced, I have found the nasty interaction between Pioneer's CMS and gray scale calibration.
This reminds me of the famous "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" in physics: you can measure the position of an electron precisely, but you can't be sure how fast it is going (and vice versa).
It seems with the 8G Kuros, you can calibrate the grayscale precisely if you leave the CMS untouched. This is what I first did. And then, I looked at the CIE chart, and noticed that blue was significantly oversaturated, and green was a bit understaturated, and red was a bit oversaturated (in Color Space 2). So, I decided to "tweak" the CMS. I had to move the Blue value quite a bit (+15) towards Magenta, to fix the Blue primary location. The others needed smaller changes.
But, now my gray scale was all a mess, so I tried to fix that, and of course, the primaries started to move again. Finally, the gamma curve looks totally strange -- an S shape, rising steeply > 3 in the low-end, and falling sharply in the higher end towards 1.
I'm calibrating with HCFR and EyeOne Display 2. Any pointers would be most appreciated!
The real color errors on these displays that can be corrected with the CMS are generally small. What you are likely seeing with RGBMCY are errors in your tools. Using low quality tools to adjust the CMS is more likely to make the colors worse than better.
What puzzles me about the Pro110FD is why the gamma curve is so badly off. The gray scale and the color primaries are really accurate, even without much tampering. But, the gamma curve is simply bizarre -- > 3 at low IREs and ~1 at high IREs, instead of staying flat.
Any suggestions for fixing the gamma? I have the gamma set at 2 in the default menu.
You are the third person to note a S-shaped gamma when calibrating with the Display2 probe. I've seen no reports of S-shaped gamma curves with other probes. It is my conclusion that one should not use a Display2 probe to calibrate a Kuro.
Quoted from HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13898407#post13898407).
Blutarsky
05-19-2008, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by D-Nice
You are the third person to note a S-shaped gamma when calibrating with the Display2 probe. I've seen no reports of S-shaped gamma curves with other probes. It is my conclusion that one should not use a Display2 probe to calibrate a Kuro.
Wow! That should go in the temp drifts thread....
madkaw
05-19-2008, 05:13 PM
madkaw, why didn't you use the ISF Memories and Controls?
How about posting your HCFR files? :D
I will be out of town till the end of the week. I will post all files this weekend.
Wolfy
05-20-2008, 03:05 AM
Here are the more comprehensive results. I still haven't had time to analyze it all so I may add comments later.
I have been trying to assess how my Display LT is handling the job of taking measurements from a plasma TV. The whole reason behind it is that I and others have found that we can have a very good grayscale tracking after finishing our calibration session only to have it change enough just the next day to warrant different settings in the TV's calibration controls.
Background: It actually began with me trying to find the inherent primary colors for my display because I found that using the Color Management controls of the TV made the grayscale unbalanced and so far almost impossible to bring back to balance. To this end I used CalMAN v.3 to take a few measurements of the primary colors without using the Color Management controls of the TV and was going to use the results for a custom white point with CalMAN. Since there was an interest in the difference between CalMAN and the freeware ColorHCFR, particularly in how the software handles Display 2/LT taking measurements from a plasma TV I decided to take a few more measurements to see what it would show.
Note that I am not publishing this as a scientific work as I did not sit down and make a plan over what to test and how to go about testing it nor did I take enough measurements for the results to be considered a strong basis for making conclusions. Further more this is measurements on a single plasma TV, using a single Display LT colorimeter and without access to a reference sensor for comparison. This is an ad hoc assessment and the results are presented as is, I just want to make that clear.
Test components:
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, 42" first generation Kuro Elite plasma TV, using HDMI input 4, A/V Modes: User and ISF Day (indicated as User and ISF in the text below) which has slightly different luminance outputs using the same Contrast setting. I used the two A/V Modes in their default settings with all of the image enhancers, e.g. Dynamic Range, Black Level enhancement, etc, in the Off setting. Contrast was set at 35 (default 40, maximum 60) yielding approximately 150+ cd/m^2 for User and 170+ cd/m^2 for ISF and Brightness at +1 (default 0, maximum +30). Before calibrating the grayscale I did not use Pioneer's Color Management controls because I find that they give unpredictable results.
Calibrated Settings:User:Contrast: 35
Brightness: +1
R Contrast: +4
G Contrast: 0
B Contrast: -11
R Brightness: 0
G Brightness: 0
B Brightness: 0ISF:Contrast: 35
Brightness: 0
R Contrast: -2
G Contrast: 1
B Contrast: +4
R Brightness: +1
G Brightness: 0
B Brightness: 0
9-Point Gamma Controls:[1]R: 1
G: 1
B: 1[9]:R: -1
G: 0
B: -1[All others] 0 0 0
Source: Oppo DV-983H, HDMI, YCbCr 4:4:4, 720p@50Hz.
Source Material: GetGray 1.1 PAL DVD.
Hardware: x-rite Display LT (EyeOne.dll 3.4.0.131), indicated as D2lt below.
Software: CalMAN v3.0.1.112, ColorHCFR 2.0.1, ControlCAL beta 2, build 14.
Test procedure:
Timeline:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/timeline.png
Measurement 1 through 10 and 11 through 20 was made with 30 minutes interval between a set of measurements, i.e. #1: ISF, Primary Colors - #2: User, Primary Colors - (30 min) - #3: ISF, Primary Colors - #4: User, Primary Colors, etc... Before #11 through 20 was begun the TV was left off for a few hours to return to room temperature.
I got different results calibrating the ISF A/V Mode with CalMAN as opposed to ColorHCFR. I opted to use the CalMAN results which is why #21 is struck from the list. Unfortunately I got a bit sidetracked and forgot to save separate files for the color measurements that followed (they were entered into excel though) which is why #22 and #27 are for both grayscale and color in the list.
10 minutes interval between a set of measurements, similar to (1) above.
A set of measurements were taken for a cold D2lt.
Another set of measurements for when the D2lt had been left to acclimatize to the display for 30 minutes.
Files:
Excel file with all of the measurement data (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/CalMAN-HCFR.rar):
The file contains the following tabs: CalMAN RGB: Tables with all of the measurement data from measurements on primary colors both from 75% and 100% stimulus patterns, with an assigned # that corresponds to the tab name (CalMAN) or file name (ColorHCFR) with the original data. A link to CalMAN and ColorHCFR files can be found below.
CalMAN RGB maxD: Tables of the results from the reference measurement (#1 for ISF and #2 for User) and the maximum deviation from that reference measurement.
CalMAN RGB stats: Manipulated (in the sense that it has been moved about to better lends itself to be used with excel to make graphs) data from the tables above so that it can be presented as graphs. The graphs are showing the difference between x, y values and those differences are in the order of 0.00x at the most, so all results have been multiplied with 1000 to be easier to present in a graph.
CalMAN Grayscale: Tables with all of the measurement data from measurements on a grayscale pattern 0% - 100% white, with an assigned # that corresponds to the tab name (CalMAN) or file name (ColorHCFR) with the original data. Use the timeline above for reference.
CalMAN Grayscale maxD: Same as for the primary colors above, but for the grayscale results.
CalMAN Grayscale stats User & CalMAN Grayscale stats ISF: Same as for the primary colors above, but for the grayscale results.
After that follows the same tabs, but for ColorHCFR results.
i1Pro Grayscale stats: Difference in x, y values multiplied with 1000 from grayscale measurements on a Pioneer PDP-LX508D and a follow up measurement two days later, using a i1 Pro. This is just for comparison purposes since they are from another time and location and by another person than me.
Luminance stats: Similar to the "stats" tabs above, but for reported luminance from the grayscale measurements. No multiplication has been done to the data.
CalMAN files (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/C-H-calman.rar): 3 .cdf files with data from each day. Tab names corresponds to the #'s in the timeline above.
ColorHCFR files (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/C-H-hcfr.rar): 53 (Note! 53 files, extract the files to a new folder so as not to flood a folder you are using with these files) .chc files with file names corresponding to the #'s in the timeline above.
Day 1:
I left the D2lt to acclimatize to the display while the display was showing a DTV signal for 30 minutes. Measurement #1 @ 30min was used as reference for primary colors for ISF and #2 @ 30min for User. A new set of measurements were taken every 30 minutes for a couple of hours, i.e. #3, #4 @ 60min; #5, #6 @ 90min, #7, #8 @ 120min and finally #9, #10 @ 150min. The TV was then left off for a few hours to return to room temperature and the the same procedure (with a 30 minutes acclimatization) was repeated with ColorHCFR. Here are the results from comparing to the reference measurement:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-primaries-day1-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-primaries-day1.png)
(click for the full size image)
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-primaries-day1-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-primaries-day1.png)
(click for the full size image)
These are only the maximum differences, look in the excel file to see the change from one measurement to the next.
After this I calibrated the grayscale for User and ISF and took some measurements for reference, both primary colors and grayscale, for the following days.
Day 2:
Like the day before I left the D2lt attached to the TV showing a DTV signal for 30 minutes and then took a series of grayscale measurements with 10 minutes in between the sets of measurements (ran out of time). Measurement #23 from Day 1 was reference for grayscale for User and #25 for ISF. Here are the results from comparing to the reference measurement:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-white-day2-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-white-day2.png)
(click for the full size image)
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-white-day2-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-white-day2.png)
(click for the full size image)
Again one has to look in the excel file to see the change from one measurement to the next.
This post will be continued below.
Wolfy
05-20-2008, 03:08 AM
...continued:
If one multiplies the difference in reported x, y values with a 1000 it looks like this:
For a full set of graphs (well, almost), download them from the link below.
The graphs for the difference in reported luminance (no multiplication of the results here) follows:
CalMAN Day 2 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-lum-day2v1cal-isf-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-lum-day2v1cal-isf.png)
(click for a larger image)
The numbers on the right side are the point in time during Day 2 when the measurement was made, so 30 is ISF Day 2 @ 30min, i.e. measurement #45, 40 is #47 and so on.
HCFR Day 2 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-lum-day2v1cal-isf-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-lum-day2v1cal-isf.png)
(click for a larger image)
CalMAN Day 2 vs Day 2 @ 30 min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-lum-day2v2@30-isf-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-lum-day2v2@30-isf.png)
(click for a larger image)
HCFR Day 2 vs Day 2 @ 30 min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-lum-day2v2@30-isf-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-lum-day2v2@30-isf.png)
(click for a larger image)
This post will be continued below.
Wolfy
05-20-2008, 03:12 AM
...continued:
Day 3:
This time I took a set of measurements with a cold D2lt and finished with another set after the D2lt had acclimatized for 30 minutes like earlier.
CalMAN Day 3 cold vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-gray-day3-cold-v1-isf.png
HCFR Day 3 cold vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-gray-day3-cold-v1-isf.png
CalMAN Day 3 cold vs Day 2 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-gray-day3-cold-v2-isf.png
HCFR Day 3 cold vs Day 2 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-gray-day3-cold-v2-isf.png
CalMAN Day 3 @ 30min vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-gray-day3@30-v1-isf.png
HCFR Day 3 @ 30min vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-gray-day3@30-v1-isf.png
CalMAN Day 3 @ 30min vs Day 2 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-gray-day3@30-v2-isf.png
HCFR Day 3 @ 30min vs Day 2 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-gray-day3@30-v2-isf.png
This post will be continued below.
Wolfy
05-20-2008, 03:14 AM
...continued:
Here is the grayscale tracking shown in graphs using ColorHCFR and imported results from CalMAN:
CalMAN ISF Day
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-tracking-isf-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-tracking-isf.png)
(click for a full sized image)
HCFR ISF Day
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-tracking-isf-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-tracking-isf.png)
(click for a full sized image)
CalMAN User
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-tracking-user-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-tracking-user.png)
(click for a full sized image)
HCFR User
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-tracking-user-s.png (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-tracking-user.png)
(click for a full sized image)
Finally, some of the graphs for the primary colors:
CalMAN Red Primary Day 1 vs Day 1 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-pri-R-day1v1@30-isf.png
HCFR Red Primary Day 1 vs Day 1 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-pri-R-day1v1@30-isf.png
CalMAN Green Primary Day 1 vs Day 1 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-pri-G-day1v1@30-isf.png
HCFR Green Primary Day 1 vs Day 1 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-pri-G-day1v1@30-isf.png
This post will be continued below.
Wolfy
05-20-2008, 03:15 AM
...continued:
CalMAN Blue Primary Day 1 vs Day 1 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-pri-B-day1v1@30-isf.png
HCFR Blue Primary Day 1 vs Day 1 @ 30min
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-pri-B-day1v1@30-isf.png
CalMAN Red Primary Day 2&3 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-pri-R-day2&3v1cal-isf.png
HCFR Red Primary Day 2&3 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-pri-R-day2&3v1cal-isf.png
CalMAN Green Primary Day 2&3 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-pri-G-day2&3v1cal-isf.png
HCFR Green Primary Day 2&3 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-pri-G-day2&3v1cal-isf.png
CalMAN Blue Primary Day 2&3 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/c-pri-B-day2&3v1cal-isf.png
HCFR Blue Primary Day 2&3 vs Day 1 cal.
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/h-pri-B-day2&3v1cal-isf.png
Download all of the graphs here (http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/CalMAN-HCFR/graphs.rar): Note, 89 files! Make sure that you extract the files to a new folder so as not to flood a folder that you use (they should extract to the folder name: graphs, but to be sure, make a new folder).
Any critique and/or feedback is most welcome.
Wolfy
05-20-2008, 01:22 PM
A guy at avsforum.com wisely questioned what my graphs showed. I offered this explanation:
...(Wolfy, what is the vertical scale on those graphs?).The same scale as in the CIE graphs, i.e. they are the CIE coordinates. Most of the graphs illustrates the difference in x and y as compared to a reference measurement.
An explicit example:
After calibration of the ISF Day A/V Mode, during Day 1, I measured (measurement #25) the following value of y at 50% Gray: 0.3298
After allowing the Display LT to acclimatize to the display for 30 min in Day 2 I measured this value of y at 50% Gray: 0.3326.
The difference between the Day 2 measure and Day 1 cal. measure is: 0.3326 - 0.3298 = 0.0028.
To be able to show this easily in a graph I multiplied all differences with 1000, i.e. 0.0028 * 1000 = 2.8 and that would be the circled point in the graph below, i.e. a +2.8 difference from the reference which is 0.0:
I know I could have provided a better explanation, but it took such a long time to gather all of the data and make it presentable I thought I had to present something.
I would also have liked to analyze the results myself first and only presented graphs I found to be relevant and perhaps done some other measurements to investigate some things further to find out if there was something relevant to be found or if it could be disregarded as nothing, but that would have taken a much longer time again so I decided to just release it and see if together with others something could be concluded. Like you wrote, there are no big errors per se so there only so much time I'm willing to put into this.
I hope this helps to better explain what most of the graphs above shows.
Blutarsky
05-21-2008, 02:29 AM
Wolfy, what can we say? A scientist!
Some questions: I’ve read about storing in excel the x,y but I can’t get the point on how big are those fluctuations…..
It looks like the measurements in Calman and HCFR are quite different, but I think this conclusion is strictly dependent on the magnitude of them….
The grayscale chart is missing the scale. Could you update it including the scale?
GorGorBey
05-21-2008, 03:10 AM
Wolfy...Like I said in another thread I bought The CalMan Software yesterday night...
Please Could you precise two things regarding this software :
1) Do you think the Calibrate Input are important? I mean the choice... Does it impact results? Do I need to adjust this option to 1080p or to the source (for example a DVD)
2) Regarding the test pattern source...Do you think that I can use HCFR DVD? What pattern source do you use?
3) I just saw a major difference with HCFR tool.
The recommendations are differents...In the CalMan tool they suggest to avoid to use Black compensation (we need to use this option only if we want to compare results with another tool like HCFR). Did you check this option?
What is your opinion ?
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 03:40 AM
Wolfy, what can we say? A scientist!Hehe, by no means is this a scientific presentation.
Some questions: I’ve read about storing in excel the x,y but I can’t get the point on how big are those fluctuations….. Well, that's the problem. To give a single number to represent the flucuations as a dE or error you would need a perfectly uniform color space. AFAIK there is no such thing, but only approximations so you should take it with a grain of salt. I have only presented inter-sensor/inter-software differences and it shows that there is a difference. To quantify that difference is difficult though. I think it would require a larger sample of measurements together with a larger sample of sensors and TV:s. All I have really shown is that there is a difference...
It looks like the measurements in Calman and HCFR are quite different, but I think this conclusion is strictly dependent on the magnitude of them….Yes, you are correct, and that would require a reference sensor, which I don't have. :( I was hoping for more feedback from people who might have done similar investigations, but so far none.
The grayscale chart is missing the scale. Could you update it including the scale?Not sure I follow. Do you mean the unit? If so, it's the chromaticity coordinates which I don't think have any unit. Or do you mean that you want me to indicate that they are multiplied with 1000?
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 04:02 AM
Wolfy...Like I said in another thread I bought The CalMan Software yesterday night...
Please Could you precise two things regarding this software :
1) Do you think the Calibrate Input are important? I mean the choice... Does it impact results? Do I need to adjust this option to 1080p or to the source (for example a DVD)Good luck with your new software, I hope you like it as much as I do. :)
Let me start by stating that I haven't owned CalMAN for very long and most of the time with it I have done this assessment so I am by no means completely familiar with it yet and yes, it is very different from HCFR and can feel more difficult to use at first.
Calibrate Input is only to build your worklist. So far I have only used a single item so I don't know what happens if you select a number of different items. I think that it sets the white point target and such things depending on the selection you have chosen, but you can change this on the fly so then it doesn't matter.
Before starting your calibration session you should go over the options on the left, at the bottom of the list.
2) Regarding the test pattern source...Do you think that I can use HCFR DVD? What pattern source do you use?I don't like the HCFR DVD personally. I think that the windowed patterns are too small. I use GetGray 1.1 PAL/NTSC DVD and DVE Professional DVD:s. GetGray is much less expensive and easier to navigate and seems to work very well.
If you have a HD player (BluRay, HD-DVD), DVE HD Basics (haven't tried this myself, but DVE makes very good products) is a good choice or AVS BluRay & HD-DVD discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496).
3) I just saw a major difference with HCFR tool.
The recommendations are differents...In the CalMan tool they suggest to avoid to use Black compensation (we need to use this option only if we want to compare results with another tool like HCFR). Did you check this option?
What is your opinion ?I have never used black level compensation (perhaps in the very beginning) and I see no reason to do so. Gamma is most important at the low end (shadow detail) so why you would then want to remove part of the data there I don't know. You don't watch your TV through a sensor, but your eyes so I think that all data that you see should be represented in the data you measure, hence black level data should be considered. At least that's my reasoning.
BTW I see now you're using mistly getgray in place of DVE...
Edit: why did you play your DVD @ 720? It's the worst case scenario about the matrix translations....
GorGorBey
05-21-2008, 04:47 AM
Good luck with your new software, I hope you like it as much as I do. :)
Let me start by stating that I haven't owned CalMAN for very long and most of the time with it I have done this assessment so I am by no means completely familiar with it yet and yes, it is very different from HCFR and can feel more difficult to use at first.
Calibrate Input is only to build your worklist. So far I have only used a single item so I don't know what happens if you select a number of different items. I think that it sets the white point target and such things depending on the selection you have chosen, but you can change this on the fly so then it doesn't matter.
I saw that yesterday night (in fact I receive the license during the night :))
Do you follow the same rule that the one used for HCFR :
- REC 709 for HD
- REC 609 (NTSC) for DVD even for pal movies...
One other strange thing....
- I compared REC709 and REC609 in both tools using some examples. Its seems that results are opposite...
The Gamut is more extended in CalMAN (REC709 > NTSC)
The Gamut is less extended in CalMAN (NTSC > REC709)
Do you understand this difference ?
You just need to change the option to see that...
Blutarsky
05-21-2008, 04:53 AM
Did you read this guys (http://www.wysios.com/jkp/gamut1.asp)?
American productions are mostly mastered on SMPTE-C monitors..
I will use ISF DAY for SMPTEC and ISF NIGHT for REC709 (good also for EBU PAL)
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 05:04 AM
Wolfy I was talking about this chart:Ah, right, then I'm with you. The scale is exactly the same for all of the graphs, I just didn't want to clutter it up too much, but sure I can include the scale all along the right side to make it more clear.
BTW I see now you're using mistly getgray in place of DVE...Yes, I wanted to use the same DVD so as to remove all possible sources of additional differences and there are no windowed color patterns in DVE Pro (don't ask me why, probably because it was made when only filters was used for that purpose?).
Edit: why did you play your DVD @ 720? It's the worst case scenario about the matrix translations....How would that impact chromaticity and luminance. If a twist happens it will happen all the time and should make no difference.
I use 720p because my DVD player is a better deinterlaced and scaler than my Pioneer TV.
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 05:27 AM
I saw that yesterday night (in fact I receive the license during the night :))
Do you follow the same rule that the one used for HCFR :
- REC 709 for HD
- REC 609 (NTSC) for DVD even for pal movies...No, I have never agreed with that suggestion from HCFR, unless you actually know what has been used by the mastering studio. There's no problem moving between Rec. 709, SMPTE C (NTSC) and EBU (PAL) chromaticity so unless you know that a PAL release only has been mastered with monitors using SMPTE C chromaticity, how do you know?
I have used EBU chromaticity for PAL DVD, but I haven't had time to investigate this closer. I only know that the inherent primary colors of my TV falls closer to EBU (and I also include the intensity of the colors when I state that) when the TV is set to Color Space 2 and since several professional reviewers have agreed upon that the Kuros are close to standard I used that information.
One other strange thing....
- I compared REC709 and REC609 in both tools using some examples. Its seems that results are opposite...
The Gamut is more extended in CalMAN (REC709 > NTSC)
The Gamut is less extended in CalMAN (NTSC > REC709)
Do you understand this difference ?
You just need to change the option to see that...Hmm, no I have not noticed this. When I change between them, the target coordinates also change to the correct values. If there's a change in the User Interface graphics I don't think that is anything to worry about, as long as the target coordinates are correct all is well. ;)
Same with the selections SDTV-REC 601 (NTSC) and HDTV - REC 709 in ColorHCFR.
Do you not get this?
Edit: Added a note with regards to color intensity.
GorGorBey
05-21-2008, 06:34 AM
No, I have never agreed with that suggestion from HCFR, unless you actually know what has been used by the mastering studio. There's no problem moving between Rec. 709, SMPTE C (NTSC) and EBU (PAL) chromaticity so unless you know that a PAL release only has been mastered with monitors using SMPTE C chromaticity, how do you know?
I have used EBU chromaticity for PAL DVD, but I haven't had time to investigate this closer. I only know that the inherent primary colors of my TV falls closer to EBU (and I also include the intensity of the colors when I state that) when the TV is set to Color Space 2 and since several professional reviewers have agreed upon that the Kuros are close to standard I used that information.
Hmm, no I have not noticed this. When I change between them, the target coordinates also change to the correct values. If there's a change in the User Interface graphics I don't think that is anything to worry about, as long as the target coordinates are correct all is well. ;)
Same with the selections SDTV-REC 601 (NTSC) and HDTV - REC 709 in ColorHCFR.
Do you not get this?
Edit: Added a note with regards to color intensity.
Regarding CalMAN I agree with what you said. Globally the Gamut will be extended in REC 709 (a little bit).
But I hope that you will be able to test ColorHCFR. Because it's the contrary...Please just take one of your example and you will understand...You just need to look at the CIE Diagram while you change the setting...
Where did you get these reference values in CalMAN as well as HCFR ?
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 07:34 AM
Regarding CalMAN I agree with what you said. Globally the Gamut will be extended in REC 709 (a little bit).
But I hope that you will be able to test ColorHCFR. Because it's the contrary...Please just take one of your example and you will understand...You just need to look at the CIE Diagram while you change the setting...Here's what I see:
In HCFR you just hover the mouse pointer over the coordinate in the CIE diagram.
In CalMAN, if you are in Design Mode, you have the targets under Color Charts | CIE Charts | P/S Color Targets. You drag that to the Layout window.
Sorry for the delayed reply, I got some visitors I had to entertain for a while.
Ok thanks It seems normal ;)
My error comes from the fact that sometimes CalMan doesn't update the CIE Diagram when we change the White Point. I was able to reproduce this issue several time...I will take care of that tonight...
Thanks again Wolfy...
At the beginning I found the interface very ugly...After practice I saw that we can do whatever we want with this interface....Interesting to see all values and informations on only one screen...
Just another question... I didn't find saturation figures (0,25%,50%, 100%) and gamma view by color...
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 09:19 AM
Is it the largest 80%/120% ??No, all the same scale. I cut out only a portion of the window to make the resulting image a bit smaller in size.
Couldn't you use 576?Yes, but that makes no difference since I'm using the same source and the same material and since the DVD is better at scaling I choose to do the scaling with the DVD.
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 09:28 AM
...My error comes from the fact that sometimes CalMan doesn't update the CIE Diagram when we change the White Point. I was able to reproduce this issue several time...I will take care of that tonight...Ah, I see. I haven't noticed that so far.
At the beginning I found the interface very ugly...After practice I saw that we can do whatever we want with this interface....Interesting to see all values and informations on only one screen...
Just another question... I didn't find saturation figures (0,25%,50%, 100%) and gamma view by color...I had a similar experience. It felt less attractive and difficult to use at first, but I quickly started to enjoy it once I started to notice how versatile it really is and how "easy" it is to customize it to your own liking. I agree that it is very handy to be able to gauge all the information at once or in parts and to have all the data in one single file.
I have not found any saturation charts or data field. Maybe a question for the Spectracal forum.
GorGorBey
05-21-2008, 09:46 AM
Ah, I see. I haven't noticed that so far.
In fact I created a new form, changed lots of things and at the end the layout has a strange behavior....
After I restarted the software, it was ok...
I have not found any saturation charts or data field. Maybe a question for the Spectracal forum.
[/QUOTE]
It's a big limitation with the Kuro...On my display colours are not enough saturated and I saw differences between 25, 50 and 75% IRE...You need to increase Color and Tint...
Regarding Gamma, do yo know if it is possible to have a view by color. I saw that in the luminance graph but not in the gamma graph...
Turbe
05-21-2008, 09:54 AM
Wolfy, GorGorBey, Joe (I can't remember the others using CalMAN),
How about a Thread Specific for CalMAN (could be very useful since you both are starting out with it)? This Thread can be kept for the Comparisons and so fourth (it looks like GorGorBey will be posting his comparisons between ColorHCFR and CalMAN soon)...
Of course, Derek is also Registered on this Forum, I'm sure he will be available to answer questions and comment.
If so, do one of you want to create the new Thread (here under Software) with an appropriate title (CalMAN Users / Owners Thread, New to CalMAN... I don't know... :D )
Shawn
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 10:02 AM
It's a big limitation with the Kuro...On my display colours are not enough saturated and I saw differences between 25, 50 and 75% IRE...You need to increase Color and Tint...You mean the saturation level of the color pattern, right? Because the intensity (IRE) shouldn't make any difference. I think I only did one saturation measurement using HCFR and it seemed, in the CIE diagram, to follow the straight line from the white point to the fully saturated color. I'll have to look into that again, but I haven't found any saturation patterns on the discs except for the HCFR DVD.
Regarding Gamma, do yo know if it is possible to have a view by color. I saw that in the luminance graph but not in the gamma graph...No, I don't know. I only look at the resultant gamma graph. Watching the RGB gamma graphs I found that they gave weird results. You could have a good grayscale, a good gamma tracking, but the RGB gamma deflections were all over the place. Gamma is almost all about Green anyway.
Wolfy
05-21-2008, 10:06 AM
Wolfy, GorGorBey, Joe (I can't remember the others using CalMAN),
How about a Thread Specific for CalMAN (could be very useful since you both are starting out with it)? This Thread can be kept for the Comparisons and so fourth (it looks like GorGorBey will be posting his comparisons between ColorHCFR and CalMAN soon)...Sounds like a good idea. Easiest is perhaps for you to do the house keeping and move posts to a new thread. We should start to keep better track of our Off Topic discussion and make a new thread in the relevant section. I think we all are playing catch up with the changing forums. ;)
I'm off to dinner, so I'll leave the honors to anyone who wants to start a new thread, maybe it's best you do it, Shawn. :)
GorGorBey
05-21-2008, 10:32 AM
You mean the saturation level of the color pattern, right? Because the intensity (IRE) shouldn't make any difference. I think I only did one saturation measurement using HCFR and it seemed, in the CIE diagram, to follow the straight line from the white point to the fully saturated color. I'll have to look into that again, but I haven't found any saturation patterns on the discs except for the HCFR DVD.
Yes the saturation level...
No, I don't know. I only look at the resultant gamma graph. Watching the RGB gamma graphs I found that they gave weird results. You could have a good grayscale, a good gamma tracking, but the RGB gamma deflections were all over the place. Gamma is almost all about Green anyway.
I saw on my Kuro that there is a direct link between Gamma (RVB) and Grey Scale.
Globally at the end of the calibration I adjust RVB curve just by changing a little bit Gamma values (R,G and B Gamma)....
It's very interesting and it works....
Only for that I find this feature very important...
Wolfy
05-22-2008, 01:37 AM
...I saw on my Kuro that there is a direct link between Gamma (RVB) and Grey Scale.
Globally at the end of the calibration I adjust RVB curve just by changing a little bit Gamma values (R,G and B Gamma)....
It's very interesting and it works....
Only for that I find this feature very important...Yes, unfortunately. Grayscale is the sum of the parts of the RGB components and gamma is the "intensity exchange" for gray for each step in the grayscale. IMHO, it shouldn't interact the way it does in the Kuro, but I am not experienced enough to know how this works in other displays. Further more I find that the 9 point controls are too insensitive, i.e. there's too large an impact for every change to the 9 point controls, I wish there were more steps for each control.
I am going to take screenshots from an entire calibration run sometime and descibing each change I've made between the shots and I hope others will do the same so that we can get to see if there's a difference between TV:s in the regard.
GorGorBey
05-22-2008, 02:48 AM
Yes, unfortunately. Grayscale is the sum of the parts of the RGB components and gamma is the "intensity exchange" for gray for each step in the grayscale. IMHO, it shouldn't interact the way it does in the Kuro, but I am not experienced enough to know how this works in other displays. Further more I find that the 9 point controls are too insensitive, i.e. there's too large an impact for every change to the 9 point controls, I wish there were more steps for each control.
I am going to take screenshots from an entire calibration run sometime and descibing each change I've made between the shots and I hope others will do the same so that we can get to see if there's a difference between TV:s in the regard.
So I took some measures yesterday night with the CalMAN and ColorHCFR softwares.
Globally the results were similar and very close except for gamma where the difference was very important (Delta 0,3 at 10 IRE and 0,1 à 100 IRE…)
So I searched a lot, I changed the calibration discs (AVCHD disk and ColorHCFR disk) the results remain very different…
So I switched off everything (TV, PS3, etc…) and I looked at each option of the CalMAN tool. After a certain amount of time I discovered one strange option:
- I saw that by changing the gamma formula to Power Function instead of the ITU/EBU Standard default value the curve became similar….You should know that Wolfy…
- The documentation is not clear regarding this option. I need to investigate more…
The Delta E graph that seem to be similar to the one in ColorHCFR seem to be Delta E uv (Do you confirm ?)
Wolfy
05-22-2008, 04:48 AM
So I took some measures yesterday night with the CalMAN and ColorHCFR softwares.Kewl! ;)
Globally the results were similar and very close except for gamma where the difference was very important (Delta 0,3 at 10 IRE and 0,1 à 100 IRE…)There's no gamma at 100%, it's what you have selected as target gamma. If you mean 90% then I'm with you.
I see a ~0.02 difference at 10%:
CalMAN: 2.195
HCFR: 2.22
A ~0.02 difference at 90%:
CalMAN: 2.163
HCFR: 2.18
So I searched a lot, I changed the calibration discs (AVCHD disk and ColorHCFR disk) the results remain very different…
So I switched off everything (TV, PS3, etc…) and I looked at each option of the CalMAN tool. After a certain amount of time I discovered one strange option:
- I saw that by changing the gamma formula to Power Function instead of the ITU/EBU Standard default value the curve became similar….You should know that Wolfy…
- The documentation is not clear regarding this option. I need to investigate more…I have always used a power function for gamma formula, both for HCFR and CalMAN, it's just a difference in what formula is used.
The Delta E graph that seem to be similar to the one in ColorHCFR seem to be Delta E uv (Do you confirm ?)Yes, agreed.
GorGorBey
05-22-2008, 05:37 AM
Kewl! ;)
There's no gamma at 100%, it's what you have selected as target gamma. If you mean 90% then I'm with you.
Of course :p
I see a ~0.02 difference at 10%:
CalMAN: 2.195
HCFR: 2.22
A ~0.02 difference at 90%:
CalMAN: 2.163
HCFR: 2.18
I have always used a power function for gamma formula, both for HCFR and CalMAN, it's just a difference in what formula is used.
Yes, agreed.
With the default value, the gap was more important and I started to be scared...
As soon as I change the settings, measures became very close.
The I1 PRO is definitely a very good sensor because, regardless of the software, measures are very constant and close...
You don't seem to have the same results with your Display 2...
One last question : Where did you find that ColorHCFR uses a Power function for gamma ?
Wolfy
05-22-2008, 07:17 AM
The I1 PRO is definitely a very good sensor because, regardless of the software, measures are very constant and close...
You don't seem to have the same results with your Display 2...No, but I'm still not sure if it's the sensor or something else. I am waiting to hear back from a very knowledgeable and experienced guy over here in Sweden. He said that that he didn't get the fluctuations that is apparent in my measurements from the assessment (he uses Colorfacts). Now, if he meant that using Display 2 or a more high end senor I don't know and unfortunately he is a very busy person, so I don't know when exactly I will hear back from him.
One last question : Where did you find that ColorHCFR uses a Power function for gamma ?"Display Gamma" (and I mean with no black compensation) is what a simple power function for gamma calculation is called IIRC.
Turbe
05-22-2008, 02:53 PM
Guys, in-case you missed it, smkuro posted his ColorHCFR files in this POST (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=659&postcount=56).
-Shawn
Wolfy
05-23-2008, 03:59 AM
...I have always used a power function for gamma formula, both for HCFR and CalMAN, it's just a difference in what formula is used.To be more clear about what I wrote above:
Display Gamma is a power function:
Y = P^gamma
where Y is the measured relative luminance, i.e.expressed from 0.0 to 1.0, that is you divide each individual result with the result from Y @ 100% stimulus. P is relative input stimulus, also expressed as 0.0 to 1.0.
ITU/EBU Standard uses the following transfer function:
Y = ((P+0.099)/1.099)^gamma
(there is a linear part near 0 that I have ignored here as it doesn't matter for us, but just so you know that at P = 0, Y is also 0 theoretically)
So, with the same measurement data you get different results in the graphs but they are only a matter of presentation.
Blutarsky
08-14-2008, 05:03 AM
M.V.A. !!!! (Most Valuable Answers)
Thanks D-Nice, I beleive everyone will benefit from your great experience with these sets.
More questions here:
- About colorpoints: what strategy did you follow? Those few clicks have been applied accordingly to flatten the grayscale or did you adjust trying to get closer to CIE reference, without spoiling too much the grayscale?
- Why did you use the I1pro? Was it a "didactical" choice, just because here no one owns a PR meter?
- If using the I1pro on these sets, what are the advices you would give using such a meter, like particular weaknesses or limits?
- Did you keep the meter plugged on the screen for the whole calibration sessions or did you unplug the meter between measurements sessions?
- Did you try a day-after measurements to see if the values changed?
- Do you think a calibration performed with a I1pro shows eye-perceivable differences in respect to a calibration done with a Display LT?
Thanks again for your precious advices
D-Nice
08-14-2008, 11:33 AM
- About colorpoints: what strategy did you follow? Those few clicks have been applied accordingly to flatten the grayscale or did you adjust trying to get closer to CIE reference, without spoiling too much the grayscale?Both. Due to Pioneer's CMS implementation, one has to pick which and how of each control they use. For instance, I could have gotten the green color right at reference numbers. However, it would cause severe grayscale problems on the lower end which cannot be corrected.
- Why did you use the I1pro? Was it a "didactical" choice, just because here no one owns a PR meter?Yep. I'm all for DIY calibration. How many DIY'er do you know that would pay for such a device....only to calibrate their display.
- If using the I1pro on these sets, what are the advices you would give using such a meter, like particular weaknesses or limits?Patience :) It can be slow and needs a black level re-cal every 10 minutes or so. It is the best for DIY plasma calibration....followed closely by the Chroma5 ;)
- Did you keep the meter plugged on the screen for the whole calibration sessions or did you unplug the meter between measurements sessions?Plugged on the screen? I had to take it down for each black reading re-cal.
- Did you try a day-after measurements to see if the values changed?Yes. The drifts were negligible.
- Do you think a calibration performed with a I1pro shows eye-perceivable differences in respect to a calibration done with a Display LT?That depends. If you can tame the LT to not flux so much between readings (it can be done....just a PITA to do), and actually have an accurate LT, the visual difference is very, very slight. Your better off getting a Chroma 5 with CalMan. 389US is a steal ;)
surething
08-21-2008, 11:18 AM
Hi Everyone
it seems that I1Pro will require a recalibration by manufacturer every now and then. Am I correct?
surething
LX-5090
TBA: CalMAN+I1Pro
learning curve before buy
Turbe
08-22-2008, 04:30 PM
it seems that I1Pro will require a recalibration by manufacturer every now and then. Am I correct?
That is correct. I believe SpectraCAL is trying to get authorized to provide this service as well.
surething
08-25-2008, 01:17 PM
I've just read entire editorial dedicated to Dummies starting their calibration DIY "career" and perhaps, someone should write something for me quite separately because I did not get it in what environment (i.e. ambient light in a well light controlled for instance or pitch black room?) the measurement for plasma display like LX5090 takes place?
From a presence of ISF-Day/Night options I gather that for LX5090 it could take place under ambient light conditions as well. Especially, that pitch black dark room is not where you watch your direct view TV set usually. At least I do not and always add an ambient light control of some sort.
Question to Mr D-Nice
Speaking of watching at my place, I found D-Nice settings for D55 much more easy on my eyes (at night) which brings me to calibrating my unit specifically for Night viewing conditions. However, assuming that D55 point is close to my eyes (night only), I wondered if you, D-Nice (thanks for great review for Pro111FD and all of your assistance at Pio forum. Impressive passion bringing some "biblical entities" to my mind) , would mind sharing (via PM me) ControlCal subset of commands (namely ISF-Day/Night) to see how it works with ControlCal before I move further with my purchases?
Regards
Surething
LX5090
ControlCal
TBA: I1Pro+CalMan
mlaun
09-10-2008, 03:57 PM
I have some comparative data between the eye one pro and the Display 2.
Shawn asked me to repost what i had posted in the avsforum as it might interest some here.
I initialy used only the D2 to calibrate my 9G 5090H (European model) and was getting slight green tinges in the shadows of peoples faces. Comparing the readings with the pro showed the D2 reading too much red and too much blue. On calibration the colors then are overcompensated and I wound up with a mild plus green situation.
The first 2 charts are of the uncalibrated TV. D2 then pro.
mlaun
09-10-2008, 04:02 PM
I then calibratred the TV with the pro using calman. Then i measured greyscale and colour points with HCFR which shows how much my particular D2 is off.
I did it with HCFR as i don't have a pro license of calman.
First the pro measurement with DE's < 2 and good CIE. Then the D2 charts.
mlaun
10-06-2008, 04:48 PM
As I posted over in the avsforum i finally got around to doing some more comparative measures with my i1d2 vs i1pro.
the differences are quite small, smaller then what i had posted a few weeks ago. Has me wondering if the d2 is sensitive to ambient moisture or something as I always warm up the probes for at least 1/2 hr on the display.
any ideas?
Turbe
11-06-2008, 09:19 AM
It's common for users to post issues with getting repeatable results with the Display 2 Series (Gamma 5, LT, 2), even more so with Plasmas.
Many have moved up to the I1 Pro...
LBDiver
02-06-2009, 04:27 PM
Wolfy,
Thank you for all the in-depth comparison charts. When you did your actual panel calibration, did you calibrate via the Display 2 then check parity with the i1 Pro. I am curious because I see mlaun did his comparison between the 2 by calibrating using the i1 Pro then using the Display after.
What I am trying to figure out is if the D2 just provides more scatter, but the underlying calibration is actually quite accurate. Or if one was to calibrate with the D2 then check with the i1 Pro that they would find the actual cal was quite off the mark. Based on yours and others numbers, it looks like with the D2 that once you get within dE +/- 2, subsequent measures with an i1 Pro proves the original calibration to be more accurate then what was originally shown by the D2 data.
As a generalization from the numbers it looks as if dE reduces by 40% + when measuring the same display with i1 Pro vs/. the D2. Therefore if one was able to reach a dE < 3 using the D2 that they should actually stop, since subsequent adjustments and measures are within the D2's error limits, and there is a 90% chance there current calibration is markedly better than what they are seeing.
I have a little more digging to find more comparisons on color accuracies between the 2 to see if there are large enough errors in the D2 to cause noticeable shifts outside the desired gamut. Where i1 Pro readings would show the same calibration further off rather than more accurate like I see in the RGB/D65 graphs.
I am afraid many DIY'ers may be put off with post's that seem to talk more about the Display 2's deficiencies, than what they can achieve with it. Therefore entry into the fun/frustration of DIY calibrating looks to be a base $500 vs. $200, at which point many will probably not do it, or just hire it out. It would be cool of we could establish a consensus on what the d2 can accomplish, what steps need to be taken to warm to achieve maximum repeatability/accuracy, at what point should someone be happy with the results. But best of all we may be able top prove with some certainty that their actual results are better than what they're seeing.
Second for Pioneer owners, I know some have shared their work flow, but has anyone written a action-response for the different adjustments in the CM-S. I finally got around to calibrating the isf modes and have found my 141 to be very sporadic if I make the slightest adjustments to the primary/secondaries, and am far from being able to predict what the damn thing is going to do.
conquest
02-16-2009, 02:50 AM
Turbe,
What it is better to buy - Display LT or Display2? Whether there is between them an essential difference in results of measurements? Whether will be Display LT enough?
How much essential difference between HCFR and CalMAN?
The resume and has not sounded. Please, help to understand and make an optimum choice and my conditions.
It is necessary to order urgently to the dealer.
P.S.: I have European model LX6090H.
Turbe
02-16-2009, 08:41 AM
The Display LT is the same hardware as the Display 2. The Display 2 ships with X-Rite's iMatch PC Monitor Calibration Software.
Note, the Display 2/LT is not recommended on your Pioneer:
I hate to tell you this, but the Display LT isn't a very reliable meter when it comes to taking measurement over a period of a few days.
D-Nice does give advice if you do use a Display 2 / LT:
Since you are using that meter, I recommend that you let it warm up on your display for at least 1 hour before attempting to take any measurements. Also make sure you are doing the initial setup of the dark measurement on a opaque black surface after the one hour warm up.
can you give me some examples of opaque black surfaces? currently i lay it on top of my black cd player. as for warming up, i leave the meter on the screen for at least 30min before calibration.
Inside of a DVD case. And you need to leave it on the screen for an hour.
- Do you think a calibration performed with a I1pro shows eye-perceivable differences in respect to a calibration done with a Display LT?
Thanks again for your precious advices
That depends. If you can tame the LT to not flux so much between readings (it can be done....just a PITA to do), and actually have an accurate LT, the visual difference is very, very slight.
freeman
03-05-2009, 02:18 AM
Turbe,
The Display LT is the same hardware as the Display 2. The Display 2 ships with X-Rite's iMatch PC Monitor Calibration Software.
Note, the Display 2/LT is not recommended on your Pioneer:
D-Nice does give advice if you do use a Display 2 / LT:
Does the fact "the Display 2/LT is not recommended on your Pioneer" means this applies to all Kuros? I own a Pro-111FD and wonders whether a Display 2/LT would do along with Calman to calibrate it? :confused:
Thank you,
freeman
Turbe
03-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Hi freeman :hiya:
That is correct, D-Nice recommends the Chroma 5 or I1 Pro minimum when calibrating the Kuros.
davewolfs
03-07-2009, 10:20 PM
What is wrong with the Display 2? Are we talking extremely small differences at best. I currently own a Display 2 and use it to calibrate a color critical LCD Monitor, why wouldn't this work on my plasma?
davewolfs
03-07-2009, 10:30 PM
Where can I get an I1 Pro for $500 :)
Wolfy,
Thank you for all the in-depth comparison charts. When you did your actual panel calibration, did you calibrate via the Display 2 then check parity with the i1 Pro. I am curious because I see mlaun did his comparison between the 2 by calibrating using the i1 Pro then using the Display after.
What I am trying to figure out is if the D2 just provides more scatter, but the underlying calibration is actually quite accurate. Or if one was to calibrate with the D2 then check with the i1 Pro that they would find the actual cal was quite off the mark. Based on yours and others numbers, it looks like with the D2 that once you get within dE +/- 2, subsequent measures with an i1 Pro proves the original calibration to be more accurate then what was originally shown by the D2 data.
As a generalization from the numbers it looks as if dE reduces by 40% + when measuring the same display with i1 Pro vs/. the D2. Therefore if one was able to reach a dE < 3 using the D2 that they should actually stop, since subsequent adjustments and measures are within the D2's error limits, and there is a 90% chance there current calibration is markedly better than what they are seeing.
I have a little more digging to find more comparisons on color accuracies between the 2 to see if there are large enough errors in the D2 to cause noticeable shifts outside the desired gamut. Where i1 Pro readings would show the same calibration further off rather than more accurate like I see in the RGB/D65 graphs.
I am afraid many DIY'ers may be put off with post's that seem to talk more about the Display 2's deficiencies, than what they can achieve with it. Therefore entry into the fun/frustration of DIY calibrating looks to be a base $500 vs. $200, at which point many will probably not do it, or just hire it out. It would be cool of we could establish a consensus on what the d2 can accomplish, what steps need to be taken to warm to achieve maximum repeatability/accuracy, at what point should someone be happy with the results. But best of all we may be able top prove with some certainty that their actual results are better than what they're seeing.
Second for Pioneer owners, I know some have shared their work flow, but has anyone written a action-response for the different adjustments in the CM-S. I finally got around to calibrating the isf modes and have found my 141 to be very sporadic if I make the slightest adjustments to the primary/secondaries, and am far from being able to predict what the damn thing is going to do.
Turbe
03-08-2009, 12:18 PM
The problem is that you don't now if you have one that is accurate in the first place (it can vary between batches) and some have reported that they do not get consistent readings spanning several days. The Display 2 Series are not NIST traceable, the I1 Pro is and can be re-certified.
There was a time that you could buy an I1 Pro for about $530 (after rebate) but those days are gone... :(
The least expensive way at this time to buy an I1 Pro is to purchase the CalMAN / I1 Pro bundle, details here: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/announcement.php?f=12&a=11
I will say that there are many DIYers using the Display 2 and post that they are happy with their results... :D I also know that many with the Kuros have upgraded to an I1 Pro or Chroma 5 after using their Display 2.
D-Nice did post some suggestions if you are using a Display 2 series on the Kuros... Info HERE (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2876&postcount=101).
davewolfs
03-08-2009, 05:28 PM
The problem is that you don't now if you have one that is accurate in the first place (it can vary between batches) and some have reported that they do not get consistent readings spanning several days. The Display 2 Series are not NIST traceable, the I1 Pro is and can be re-certified.
There was a time that you could buy an I1 Pro for about $530 (after rebate) but those days are gone... :(
The least expensive way at this time to buy an I1 Pro is to purchase the CalMAN / I1 Pro bundle, details here: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/announcement.php?f=12&a=11
I will say that there are many DIYers using the Display 2 and post that they are happy with their results... :D I also know that many with the Kuros have upgraded to an I1 Pro or Chroma 5 after using their Display 2.
D-Nice did post some suggestions if you are using a Display 2 series on the Kuros... Info HERE (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2876&postcount=101).
Thanks for the response. The Display 2 that I would be using is actually rebranded from NEC and tweaked and calibrated by them to handle their high gamut LCD monitors which have a significant number more colors then the NTSC gamut. That being said I can only hope that it will do a good job. I just can't justify spending $799 on an i1 Pro and then $99 for LCD calibration software right now, when the Display 2 bundle costs $160 with the appropriate software and HCFR is free.
Turbe
12-18-2009, 02:36 PM
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The X-Rite i1 Display2 and DisplayLT do NOT require nor need a black level calibration, same goes for the Chroma5. The X-Rite Hubble/OTC-1000 and i1Pro do need a black level calibration every 10-15 minutes.
If your software says it does then they do not understand how the Display2 works.
Although, wasn't there some issue with the D2/LT vs Plasma's and thermal drift?
Yes the D2/LT can have thermal drift with large temperature changes but this should on only be in the Y not xy. As for D2 thermal drift not much can be done except let the meter sit on the display for 30 minutes or so.
FYI, the D2/LT has factory set sensor dark current offsets that can't be changed.
