Pioneer 8G Kuro Elite / Step-up D Models using ISFccc Option - All Regions

[Turbe]

This may be a stupid question, but one thing I noticed when making my adjustments is that control cal leaves out Pioneer's gamma curve selection of 1-3. Is there any way to implement it, or is is totally unnecessary?

I think Blutarsky mentioned that too, but the 9-Point is what is available via the ISFccc interface, I believe those other selections are not needed.

[gatornavy]

Can someone give me a tip for setting gamma correctly. Some of the gamma points don't line up perfectly with each of my IRE's and changing some of the points throws others out of whack. I'm about to throw my 950 out the window. Grrrrr. Is this Control Cals fault, or am I correct in thinking it's my display?

[Wolfy]

Concerning Gamma from the post above:

Blutarsky's post on AVS:
...- One other strange beheaviour is that if you tweak a point, you are actually changing the next one! You have to keep in mind this factor.
I can't say that I have experienced this. Here's a couple of screenshots and photos from a mini review I wrote for a Swedish home theater forum:

http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/16-profile-extra-g5-R_plus.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/17-pio-g5-R_plus.png

http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/18-profile-extra-g5-R_minus.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/19-pio-g5-R_minus.png

It seems to be effecting where it should be. I have tried this with all the points of the 9 point gamma adjustment and it seems to be correct all through the range.

Of course, when you start trying to influence the gamma tracking over the whole range it's a whole other beast :D

Also, I don't know if I have missed something, but you only have a 2 point grayscale adjustment, RGB Gains and Cutoffs. As far as I understand it, all you can do is try to get as flat a gamma tracking as you can while having a grayscale tracking where RGB, while being separated, is also flat so that you can adjust that with RGB Gains and Cutoffs.

Comments?

[Blutarsky]

Great posts Wolfy, as always!

Well since I've been getting decent and constant results with the Getgray calibration patterns DVD I could concentrate on calibration and the C3 Interface.

I'm getting there and as I've wrote on AVS I need a few runs to acheive a very good calibration.

About the 9 point gamma tracking: I'm using it to flatten the grayscale and, yes, it changes slightly the gamma curve...Unsure if this is what it was intended for...

But now I can tweak correctly the grasycale, although it's very dangerous in terms of impact, as a single click can screw up everything.

For this reason now I'm recording on paper each change I do so I can easily goback at the previous setting and start over with other changes.

Definitelly it's not a Controlcal matter, it is the interface tha is tricky, that is why I asked some Pioneer's representative to make some changes in the firmware, if possible.

But basically I've learned that, initially, we should perform multiple runs without touching the "G9" control until we have reached very pleasant results. Try to adjust the grayscale just using RGB highs and lows to get it flat say from IRE 30 to 80. Adjust "Colour management" to move the colorpoints in place; it will make the grayscale task tougher but it will bring you to better results.
Once you get there, you can start to flatten the grayscale on the left and right sides, with the G9 control, just changeing one click per time and performing again the grayscale measurement to see what happened.

The only concern is this is the correct way to use the G9 control!

Maybe shawn could ask @ Pioneer.....

About firmware changes: I'll defintelly go for a petition online, hopeing Pioneer's bosses will decide to go for a more future-proof strategy and customer care satisfaction with firmware updates.

[Wolfy]

Great posts Wolfy, as always!You're not too shabby yourself mate :)

...About the 9 point gamma tracking: I'm using it to flatten the grayscale and, yes, it changes slightly the gamma curve...Unsure if this is what it was intended for...Hmm, I can get pretty large impact on gamma tracking using the 9 point. Here's an example (dotted lines indicate the starting point after having set black level, white level and gamut):

http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/9point-adjustment.png

Edit: These are the settings in G9:


R0, G1, B0
R-2, G-1, B-2
R-2, G-1, B-2
R-2, G-1, B-2
R-2, G-1, B-2
R-2, G-1, B-2
R-2, G-1, B-2
R0, G0, B0
R0, G0, B0
But now I can tweak correctly the grasycale, although it's very dangerous in terms of impact, as a single click can screw up everything.If it works for you, then go for it. I certainly don't have all the answers, I just find it logical that the 9 point adjustments should adjust the gamma in lieu of the 3 set values you have in the User Menu.

I agree that the adjustments are not sensitive enough, they are too harsh and makes too much impact thus making it tricky and hard to control.

For this reason now I'm recording on paper each change I do so I can easily goback at the previous setting and start over with other changes.That's very good practice. I'm also going to start recording everything to see if one can find out the proper way to do this.

The only concern is this is the correct way to use the G9 control!Yup, and that's my concern too. I find it logical that G9 should be used for gamma, but I don't know if my way is the proper way. I hope someone in the know will share their knowledge with us.

Meanwhile, good luck to you in your efforts to find a way that works well all of the time... and good luck to me and everyone else too :D

[Blutarsky]

Yes, I see it now.Not sure that you need more than to change the gamma adjustments though. I mean that something like this should be sufficient?

Regarding you using the 9 point gamma to adjust grayscale tracking, that seems backwards to me since in the ISF interface you replace the 3 set gamma choices in the User Menu with a 9 point adjustment.

Yes, I've had the same suspect.. probabily the 3 presets in the TV are some 9 point "hardocoded" combinations.

Nevertheless that control is the only way to flatten spiky points on the grayscale, particularly on the extreme sides of the grayscale...

As this changes the gamma curve, I've asked Tom Huffman to tell what is it better to sacrifice.... grayscale or gamma? Or? Look for a compromise?.

Take a look at this for example:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3600/grayscalemj0.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5880/gammaew1.jpg

[Wolfy]

Personally I would say that a compromise is what you have to aim for. A S-shaped gamma curve is as objectionable as a spiky and "colored" grayscale for the PQ.

Here are gamma unzoomed from above and also the grayscale at this point in the calibration. Note that this is not a finished calibration, I haven't got there yet, but you can at least see some semblance of a grayscale that should be possible to adjust correctly with RGB Highs and Lows:

http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/9point-adjustment-no-zoom.png
This is for darkened room viewing, i.e. only with a dim bias light behind the TV.

http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/controlcal/grayscale-after-9point.png

PS Having thought about it for a while longer, I would say that gamma is most important since a bad gamma tracking will mean that you lose the dynamic range in the image, possibly details and worst case end up with a washed out image that lacks details both in shadows and highlights. This is IMHO.

[Blutarsky]

Do you think my S-curved gamma is acceptable?

[gatornavy]

I was able to flatten out my grayscale perfectly last night using the RGB highs and lows and then tweaking with the 9 point gamma adjustment. It took a lot of passes and trial and error, but I nailed it. Oh then I tried to tweak one point for absolute perfection, and screwed it all up. Grrr. Frustrating, but fun!

Blutarsky, your s-curved gamma is better than a lot I've seen and is pretty good, though with using control cal last night, I was able to get it even flatter before I screwed it up. Keep trying.

I've noticed my PURE user setting being reset after using control cal as well. Not sure exactly what caused it.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2vxlwls.jpg

[Turbe]

What Color Space Setting is everyone using? In the ISF Mode(s), you should be set to 2.

Make sure you have both of these (in ISF Calibration Mode of course):

Color Temp: 6
Color Space: 2

9 point gamma was design for the color correction side of it, not gamma tweaks though it can be used for gamma tweaks. Use a 10 Step ramp pattern with these Controls.

I'll post some tips (including recommended Flow later). :D


-Shawn

[Wolfy]

Do you think my S-curved gamma is acceptable?First of all I think you're the best judge of that. From my limited experience it's certainly not horrible, but I think you should be able to a bit flatter.

[Blutarsky]

gator what sensor and patterns are you using?

[gatornavy]

I'm using a spyder2 with HCFR with the AVS HD 709 test patterns through my Sony BDP-S300.

[Blutarsky]

I'm using a spyder2 with HCFR with the AVS HD 709 test patterns through my Sony BDP-S300.

So REC709 in HCFR...

[mdfire]

Still really impressed with programme. USB Converter definitely not working so I will try to get the Keyspan. One benefit is though that I have one laptop connected to the display to run ControlCal and the other connected to the probe to run HCFR..great visually:)

I find that if I wait 5-10 seconds after hitting the power on button before I hit start calibration I dont get the ISF Level not supported message.

A minor point (and this is splitting hairs) is that I think it would be good if the Colour Management sliders had numbers shown as per the highs and lows.

Anyway, I have square eyes by this stage and it is saturday so thats enough for today. Ive attached my last HCFR readings which I am pleased with so far.:D

[GorGorBey]

Good evening :cool:

First of all I would like to congratulate you for this nice tool. The comments below are just here to help (little) you to improve the tool...

I calibrated my FULL HD LX508 Pioneer yesterday night till 5.00AM this morning.
The calibration has been done during 4 hours...

- The Gamma table is very difficult to use (each time you have to reset gamma. It's a pain...). It’s impossible to have a global view of all parameters…At the end, after several errors and loss, I copied all parameters in a file to ensure a backup...I hope that this feature will be available very soon because it's perhaps the most important weaknesses...

- I faced one major issue (4 times the calibration mode has been disabled by itself. It's not linked to time out issues. It's strange...The only solution I found was to save and to end the calibration each 20 minutes to be sure that my settings are not lost...
Did you know this issue ?

- One option to copy parameter from ISF Night to ISF Day should be available...Globally these settings are similar (except Luminosity and Contrast of course). I'm talking here about gamma parameters because it's already available for other parameters...

- It could be a good thing if we can have our name at the end of the calibration. I don't know if there is some place available... It will add value to the tool...

The results were very good:
- Delta E below 2 from 20IRE to 100IRE (except for 2 values with Delta E below 3 )
- Flat Gamma Curve between 2.1 and 2.2 (it's my preference...)
- Excellent CIE Diagram...

I will post the ColorHCFR.chc later…If you want that I test something don’t hesitate to ask me. I have several others calibrations to do for DTV and other input entries…

Thanks...

[mdfire]

Hi GorGorbey, good post. Your results look excellent. Could you post flow procedure, colour meter used etc.

Good evening :cool:

The results were very good:
- Delta E below 2 from 20IRE to 100IRE (except for 2 values with Delta E below 3 )
- Flat Gamma Curve between 2.1 and 2.2 (it's my preference...)
- Excellent CIE Diagram...

I will post the ColorHCFR.chc later…If you want that I test something don’t hesitate to ask me. I have several others calibrations to do for DTV and other input entries…

Thanks...

[Wolfy]

...The results were very good:
- Delta E below 2 from 20IRE to 100IRE (except for 2 values with Delta E below 3 )
- Flat Gamma Curve between 2.1 and 2.2 (it's my preference...)
- Excellent CIE Diagram...Interesting, did you move the primary colors with Color Management?

I think that the LX508D has even better primary colors than the HD Ready models so perhaps you didn't have to do that. In my experience when you move the primary colors with the CM is when it becomes a real pain to get an optimal gray scale and a flat gamma curve.

[mdfire]

Yes I had an almost perfect RGB graph and then when I started looking at the CM, I lost it completely:mad:

Interesting, did you move the primary colors with Color Management?

I think that the LX508D has even better primary colors than the HD Ready models so perhaps you didn't have to do that. In my experience when you move the primary colors with the CM is when it becomes a real pain to get an optimal gray scale and a flat gamma curve.

[Wolfy]

Same here, as soon as I touch the CM it's an uphill battle. I was hoping the the 9 point controls would help, but they are not helpful enough (too much happens with each increment). At least I have not found a way to use it after I've used the CM.

I'm looking into using CalMAN to use a custom white point target where I use the primary colors and D65 without using the Pioneer CM.

[GorGorBey]

I redo the calibration this morning. Here are the results I was able to reach

I started with Color Management First and I worked on RVB curvers and Gamma after...

I will tune the Plasma tonight but the results are already excellents...

[GorGorBey]

Sorry I forgot to put the files...

[mdfire]

I found the 9 point control useful in sorting out the 90IRE. Basically I adjusted the 80IRE gamma point and it flatened the grayscale at 90 and 100. I found that if you try to adjust all the gamma points results go way off. I think they should only be used in certain areas in addition to the RGB Highs and Lows.


Same here, as soon as I touch the CM it's an uphill battle. I was hoping the the 9 point controls would help, but they are not helpful enough (too much happens with each increment). At least I have not found a way to use it after I've used the CM.

I'm looking into using CalMAN to use a custom white point target where I use the primary colors and D65 without using the Pioneer CM.

[mdfire]

I do think we are splitting hairs though and just trying to eek out the last drop from the display. The pic quality is absolutely stunning. Even my wife commented on it last night and she is a technophob.:D:D

[Wolfy]

You make a good point. There doesn't exist a perfect display (or video chain) so you will always have to make sacrifices. ;)

My entire point is about where to make that sacrifice during calibration of a Pio G8 with ISF C3 interface. Since I think that when using Color Space 2 with Pio 8G you are very close to standard already, it is best to sacrifice using the CM at all and instead focus on adjusting grayscale and gamma as best you can using the primary colors unadjusted.

[GorGorBey]

You make a good point. There doesn't exist a perfect display (or video chain) so you will always have to make sacrifices. ;)

My entire point is about where to make that sacrifice during calibration of a Pio G8 with ISF C3 interface. Since I think that when using Color Space 2 with Pio 8G you are very close to standard already, it is best to sacrifice using the CM at all and instead focus on adjusting grayscale and gamma as best you can using the primary colors unadjusted.

Last time I started with Gamma and RVB and I saw a big impact when I changed colors...This time I do the opposite and it was easier to calibrate...

I needed to change a lot the primary colors (all colors). The values are in comments in the HCFR files...

But the impact on the grey scale was manageable...

Do you know what input do we need to use to put my settings (Input 4) as a basis for DTV ?
And For Home Gallery (For photo...)

[Wolfy]

Last time I started with Gamma and RVB and I saw a big impact when I changed colors...This time I do the opposite and it was easier to calibrate...I have always started with adjusting CM since the grayscale depends on RGB coordinates and white point coordinate.


I needed to change a lot the primary colors (all colors). The values are in comments in the HCFR files...

But the impact on the grey scale was manageable...What source are you calibrating against?

It's very interesting that you don't get much of an impact on the grayscale when moving the color using Color Management. I certainly don't get that behavior :confused:


Do you know what input do we need to use to put my settings (Input 4) as a basis for DTV ?
And For Home Gallery (For photo...)I have Input 1 through 9 listed in ControlCAL. I believe that DTV is Input 5. No idea about Home Gallery though.

[GorGorBey]

I have always started with adjusting CM since the grayscale depends on RGB coordinates and white point coordinate.

What source are you calibrating against?

It's very interesting that you don't get much of an impact on the grayscale when moving the color using Color Management. I certainly don't get that behavior :confused:

I have Input 1 through 9 listed in ControlCAL. I believe that DTV is Input 5. No idea about Home Gallery though.

Thanks I will test Input 5...

The source is a PS3. It's globally a neutral source...

The behavior of my display is propably different...

[joestefano]

I can't get consistent result with the ISF, During Cal. Blue will shoot off the chart then return to normal. The results I get with CalMAN are far more volatile than with HCFR, I'll to get those to you.

21

22

[joestefano]

23

24

Here you go. Let me know what you think
These were taken 24 hours apart no changes other than results.

[Blutarsky]

23

24

Here you go. Let me know what you think
These were taken 24 hours apart no changes other than results.

The grayscale has some changes..... do you think they're acceptable?

[GorGorBey]

Here are the final results regarding ISF NIGHT:

They are better....

Delta E : below 1.6 (from 20IRE to 100) except one value at 30 IRE : 3,2
Gamma : between 2.16 to 2.21
Excellent CIE Diagram...

So it's possible with a LX508D to reach something close to perfection....

The results I get with CalMAN are far more volatile than with HCFR, I'll to get those to you.


I'm not surprised because the ColorHCFR does an average of measures (and it far better I think)


I have Input 1 through 9 listed in ControlCAL. I believe that DTV is Input 5. No idea about Home Gallery though.

The Input 5 is in fact the PC Entry...

[Blutarsky]

The measurements seem good, although not moving the primaries.

What sensor are you using? Could you perform some "day after" measurements and post them?

[GorGorBey]

The measurements seem good, although not moving the primaries.


What do you mean? My English is not good and I don’t understand the end of this sentence.
Does it mean that I didn't change a lot the primary?


What sensor are you using? Could you perform some "day after" measurements and post them?

The sensor is an I1PRO and I will do again measure tonight. But I'm sure of the results. It will be very close...The I1PRO is excellent and gives repetitive results day after day...

[Blutarsky]

I mean you didn't move the red,green & blue position using the colour management....

[GorGorBey]

I mean you didn't move the red,green & blue position using the colour management....

It's false. I changed to followings parameters :

R : +6
Y : +3
G : -9
C : +2
B : +4
M : -3

[Wolfy]

...The Input 5 is in fact the PC Entry...Hmm, OK, sorry for leading you the wrong way. Did you find the correct Input # for DTV? I use an exteral box so I use one of the HDMI inputs.

[Blutarsky]

It's false. I changed to followings parameters :

R : +6
Y : +3
G : -9
C : +2
B : +4
M : -3

Hum.... looking at the CIE chart the primaries look out of target...was it your choice or you couldn't get them in place?

[GorGorBey]

Hum.... looking at the CIE chart the primaries look out of target...was it your choice or you couldn't get them in place?

What ColorSpace are you using in HCFR Colorimeter SDTV or HDTV?

My Calibration has been done in SDTV (if it's not the case at your side you can change the value). Red Value and Blue Value will be perfect. Green will be a little bit over saturated...

Many of the DVD I see are standard DVD so I choose this option...

What I see is: It should be easier to adjust the colour to the reference using HDTV.....Because for me the most difficult thing was to adjust the green colour...I needed to increase red and blue colour. It I decrease a little bit these values the results will be perfect...

[Blutarsky]

.............. SDTV. But as most valuable calibrators state, it is more important to gain a flat grayscale and gamma curve rather than primaries in place...

[GorGorBey]

.............. Sdtv

What does it mean ?

[GorGorBey]

.............. SDTV. But as most valuable calibrators state, it is more important to gain a flat grayscale and gamma curve rather than primaries in place...

I know but with this display we are able to reach both targets :).

My questions are :
- Should I continue to calibrate my display using the SDTV mode ?
- Should I need to use a HDTV DVD for the calibration ?

[Blutarsky]

I know but with this display we are able to reach both targets :).

My questions are :
- Should I continue to calibrate my display using the SDTV mode ?
- Should I need to use a HDTV DVD for the calibration ?

Well it depends on the standard you want. There has been a long discussion on this.... check out the following (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1022716)

[Blutarsky]

Personally I think I will end using one input for SMPTE-C and one for HDTV:
- ISF day for SMPTE-C/REC601
- ISF night for REC701

[Blutarsky]

GorGorBey,
it would be nice if you could post a .chc containing the measures in continuos mode, from 10 to 100, to appreciate how the i1pro beheaves.
Particullarly I'm interested in the "hops" up and down...
MAybe the optimum should be to perform some free measures showing at least 20 measures per each gray pattern (200 measures total).

Also the "day after" measurements would be good!

[GorGorBey]

GorGorBey,
it would be nice if you could post a .chc containing the measures in continuos mode, from 10 to 100, to appreciate how the i1pro beheaves.
Particullarly I'm interested in the "hops" up and down...
MAybe the optimum should be to perform some free measures showing at least 20 measures per each gray pattern (200 measures total).

Also the "day after" measurements would be good!

I will do my best to have a two days after measure tonight...For the rest I will see how the continuous mode is working...

[GorGorBey]

GorGor, how will you calibrate DTV?

Globally whatever the source, Colour (Primaries, Secondaries) are always at the same place (when calibrated). I saw that on 2 different sources (PS3and DVICO TVIX 4100 SH)

It's similar to Contrast & Luminosity even if there is some gap between sources...But this gap is not so big (at most +/- 1).

The problem comes from the grey scale because I saw more important differences...

So, I take the assumption that the colours parameter can be copied from my DVD settings.
I also take the assumption that I can copy Contrast & Luminosity. But I will need to adjust value with my eyes...

Regarding GreyScale I don't know...Perhaps I will test both settings (those obtained with both sources upper) and I’ll save the best one....

It's complicated, it’s not objective but I sure that it will be able to reach a good level of quality....
After All it's DTV and it's not so good...

[smkuro]

This may sound like a dumb question, especially given my background in computer science, but how did you insert the serial port connector to the back of the TV? I see a RS-232 male port on the back of my TV. However, the USB-to-serial cable that I just got from Radio Shack has a male 9-pin end as well. Also, the Keyspan cable that Shawn recommends also has a male 9-pin end.

Do you need another gender changer to get this to work?

[Turbe]

Thread Started..

[Wolfy]

...Do you need another gender changer to get this to work?Yes, you do. I use a female to female straight serial cable.

Make sure you have everything shut off when fastening the connector to the TV's serial port.

[smkuro]

Yikes, I wish the instructions that come with ControlCAL were a bit more explicit in terms of such basics, like hooking it up. OK, I'll have rummage in the attic to see if I have a female serial-to-serial, otherwise its another trip to Radio Shack.

I am re-measuring as we speak, and things are looking a lot better in terms of the readings. With contrast set to 33, I am measuring 156 cd/m^2 (or about 46 ftL). This
seems more in line with what you were saying earlier. If I reduce brightness down by 3-4 notches, I get the 100% IRE window measurement to be around 39 ftL.

Interestingly, the gray scale really flattens out at the low end if I keep the contrast at 33 or so. Otherwise, things get a bit messed up at the low end.

OK, gray scale looks amazingly flat and RGB levels are all very close all the way from 10 to 100 IRE. The CIE chart looks a little better than before, with all primaries very close (and secondaries as well).

Get ready for the surprise! The gamma curve is .... still messed up! It looks a little bit better than before, but not by a lot. It varies from near 1.1 at the high end to > 2.5 at the low end.

Any suggestions? (I need to get ControlCAL working, of course).

[Wolfy]

...This seems more in line with what you were saying earlier. If I reduce brightness down by 3-4 notches, I get the 100% IRE window measurement to be around 39 ftL.In my experience Brightness should be from 0 to -1 for nighttime, not much less and certainly not without being able to offset it with the gamma controls in ControlCAL. You shouldn't use Brightness to change the 100% measurement. If you have Brightness at -3 or -4 you are killing the shadow detail and the gamma tracking will reflect that as you see in the graph.

...Get ready for the surprise! The gamma curve is .... still messed up! It looks a little bit better than before, but not by a lot. It varies from near 1.1 at the high end to > 2.5 at the low end.

Any suggestions? (I need to get ControlCAL working, of course).A bit too tired right now to be of any use, but your settings from before looked decent with contrast in the 33 range it should give good results.

Post your new .chc file and I can have a look tomorrow or perhaps others are awake now and can help. :)

[Turbe]

Obviously, to existing Members, the Posts above have been copied from the Non-Public Beta Threads..

-Shawn

[smkuro]

I'm still confused about the need to do a REFRESH. Let's say I am calibrating input 7 in ISF-DAY mode. Obviously, I am going to set the inputs the way I want to, on panel 1 and 2. Why is there a need to do a refresh at the very beginning? This is the step that gives rise to many error values, in my case (and the received values are then shown in RED, which gets me worried).

Regarding the Sencore interface, one thing that is worth taking from that is the use of a radio button for the ISF-Day or ISF-Night buttons. The problem with your interface is that once I click on ISF-DAY or ISF-Night, I have no visual indication on ControlCAL to tell me which mode I am in. Of course, I can turn OSD on and see on the TV, but it would be nice to have that on the software as well.


OK, gang:

Count me in the group of ControlCAL hackers! I now understand how to use this very useful piece of software! I created ISFDay and ISFNight for inputs 4-7, and calibrated them to have flat gray scale and reasonable contrast. The CIE diagram looks nice.

Unfortunately, the Gamma curve is nowhere near flat. I played with the Gamma settings a bit, but aside from noticing the huge effect on the grayscale, I saw no effect on my gamma curve.

Can someone suggest how to modify the gamma curve to make it flat. It is right now > 2.8 or so at the low end (10-20 IRE) and < 1.3 at the high end (80-100 IRE).

I assume gamma point low numbers affect low IRE and gamma point high numbers affect high IRE. Should I decrease or increase R, G, and B at each of these settings.

Thanks again for all the help!

[smkuro]

Aaahh... success! Amazingly, the problem was the generation of test patters using HCFR. When I measured gamma using the AVS HD-DVD disc, the gamma curve looked much nicer. Minor tweaks to contrast (28) and brightness (-2) brought gamma in line, flat as a pancake (well, almost, 2.2 at the low and 2.13 at the high).

Colors look almost 100% right, with extremely minor errors. The only problem is that the grayscale is no longer razor flat, but slightly bumpy (+/- 200 degrees in 2 places). I think this is really hard to correct. The 9-point gamma controls are really hard to work with. One bump here, and everything goes crazy. Best not to play with these too much.

Time to sit back and enjoy the results! I'll recalibrate after putting on a few hundred hours more on the TV....

Thanks all -- I learned an awful lot. Someone needs to investigate why the gamma computation using HCFR internal patterns was so completely wrong. And I thought it had to do with the Display 2 sensor. No, this sensor is actually really really good (For the money).

[smkuro]

I'm attaching two calibration files for my 110FD, one for ISF-Day and the other for ISF-Night. It is interesting to see the tradeoffs between trying to get a smooth gamma curve, vs. a smooth gray scale. ISF-Night gets the gamma right around 2.2, but the gray scale is a bit bumpy. ISF-Day gets the gray scale smoother, but the gamma is a bit lower (2.1) and not quite so smooth. There are minor color errors to be fixed, especially cyan. But, overall, I'm happy with both of these. I like the fact that one can have two settings to compare. My feeling is that 2.2 as the gamma threshold is a bit high, and I am going to see tonight if I like 2.1 better.

Comments welcome! Thanks again to Shawn for his really neat program, which made this so much easier. I wish I could get reliable performance from the internal HCFR test patters, which would make calibration so much faster than using the AVS HD-DVD, and manually stepping through each pattern.

[GorGorBey]

I'm attaching two calibration files for my 110FD, one for ISF-Day and the other for ISF-Night. It is interesting to see the tradeoffs between trying to get a smooth gamma curve, vs. a smooth gray scale. ISF-Night gets the gamma right around 2.2, but the gray scale is a bit bumpy. ISF-Day gets the gray scale smoother, but the gamma is a bit lower (2.1) and not quite so smooth. There are minor color errors to be fixed, especially cyan. But, overall, I'm happy with both of these. I like the fact that one can have two settings to compare. My feeling is that 2.2 as the gamma threshold is a bit high, and I am going to see tonight if I like 2.1 better.

Comments welcome! Thanks again to Shawn for his really neat program, which made this so much easier. I wish I could get reliable performance from the internal HCFR test patters, which would make calibration so much faster than using the AVS HD-DVD, and manually stepping through each pattern.

Nice but you should be able to have a better RVB curve...

ISF Night...

Try these two advices :
- Increase Red Gamma at 70 IRE of 1 point
- Decrease Blue Gamma at 50 IRE of 1 point

It should solve your issues regarding RVB curve and the impact on the Gamma curve should be not much important...

[smkuro]

Yes, I've tried smoothing out the gray scale by tweaking the Red and Blue Gammas, but I find that plays havoc with the gamma curve. If you plot the individual Red, Blue, Green gammas, you find that any changes in the gamma 9 point scale clearly show up. So, this is a compromise -- I think the overall gray scale is overrated in terms of its importance. It is probably more important to keep R, G, and B values in balance.

I'll play with this some more, and keep you updated.

[smkuro]

OK, following GorGorBey's suggestion, here's an improved calibration file with far better gamma. Now, the curve is quite flat, and the individual R,G,B gammas are much tighter (especially red). I now understand how to use the very useful 9-point gamma controls.

The lower end of the gray scale needs tightening somewhat, which is my next step. And then perhaps I can get cyan closer to the reference.

On another topic: I wonder if it would be possible to unlock the noise control (3D) in thbe ISF-day or ISF-night settings. Yesterday, I was watching Room With a View on Blu-Ray: marvellous transfer, but the film grain was quite noticeable in many scenes. It would be nice to have that noise reduction system activated. I guess I could aways set that control ON in ISF-Day and have it disabled in ISF-night (or vice versa).

Too bad we can't rename the ISF-Day or ISF-night to something more meaningful.

[GorGorBey]

OK, following GorGorBey's suggestion, here's an improved calibration file with far better gamma. Now, the curve is quite flat, and the individual R,G,B gammas are much tighter (especially red). I now understand how to use the very useful 9-point gamma controls.

The lower end of the gray scale needs tightening somewhat, which is my next step. And then perhaps I can get cyan closer to the reference.

On another topic: I wonder if it would be possible to unlock the noise control (3D) in thbe ISF-day or ISF-night settings. Yesterday, I was watching Room With a View on Blu-Ray: marvellous transfer, but the film grain was quite noticeable in many scenes. It would be nice to have that noise reduction system activated. I guess I could aways set that control ON in ISF-Day and have it disabled in ISF-night (or vice versa).

Too bad we can't rename the ISF-Day or ISF-night to something more meaningful.

;) It's much better now because it's perfect at 70 IRE (this IRE is very important....)

Regarding cyan, you can adjust the value by using the saturation measure of ColorHCFR...

For The low end, What sort of sensor do you have ?

[smkuro]

I am using a X-Rite Display-2 sensor.

[sirluckyj]

I'm attaching two calibration files for my 110FD, one for ISF-Day and the other for ISF-Night. It is interesting to see the tradeoffs between trying to get a smooth gamma curve, vs. a smooth gray scale. ISF-Night gets the gamma right around 2.2, but the gray scale is a bit bumpy. ISF-Day gets the gray scale smoother, but the gamma is a bit lower (2.1) and not quite so smooth. There are minor color errors to be fixed, especially cyan. But, overall, I'm happy with both of these. I like the fact that one can have two settings to compare. My feeling is that 2.2 as the gamma threshold is a bit high, and I am going to see tonight if I like 2.1 better.

Comments welcome! Thanks again to Shawn for his really neat program, which made this so much easier. I wish I could get reliable performance from the internal HCFR test patters, which would make calibration so much faster than using the AVS HD-DVD, and manually stepping through each pattern.

I just joined this forum. I'm quite active on the AVS forum. I just finished calibrating my Pro 150 using i1 Display 2 and HCFR. I looked your charts and noticed that you also have a high dE for Blue. I also calibrated my Fujitsu P50 (40) and the blue dE was also high. Don't know what this means. Here are the settings I used and my file.

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +8
Tint: G4
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 2


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High -1
G High 0
B High +7
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low -5

CTI: Off

Color Management
R -8
Y +2
G -2
C -5
B -1
M -3

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 2

Let me know what you think.

Jim

[Turbe]

Jim (sirluckyj), your settings above were set in the Normal (non ISFccc Modes), correct?

If so, I will copy/move your post to the Non-ISFccc Thread (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34).. :) (also, why wouldn't want to use the ISFccc Modes?)

Please confirm and let me know....

Shawn

[sirluckyj]

Jim (sirluckyj), your settings above were set in the Normal (non ISFccc Modes), correct?

If so, I will copy/move your post to the Non-ISFccc Thread (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34).. :) (also, why wouldn't want to use the ISFccc Modes?)

Please confirm and let me know....

Shawn

Shawn: Yes, Normal. I guess I don't know about the ISFcc mode.

Jim

[mdfire]

I just joined this forum. I'm quite active on the AVS forum. I just finished calibrating my Pro 150 using i1 Display 2 and HCFR. I looked your charts and noticed that you also have a high dE for Blue. I also calibrated my Fujitsu P50 (40) and the blue dE was also high. Don't know what this means. Here are the settings I used and my file.

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +8
Tint: G4
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 2


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High -1
G High 0
B High +7
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low -5

CTI: Off

Color Management
R -8
Y +2
G -2
C -5
B -1
M -3

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 2

Let me know what you think.

Jim

Jim, you should be able to flatten the grayscale and reduce Delta E using the gamma controls in CC. Thats how I did it.

[Turbe]

Shawn: Yes, Normal. I guess I don't know about the ISFcc mode.

Jim

OK, I will copy your post to the other Thread and post the link below:

EDIT: Copied to: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47


Also, the ISFccc mode gives your 8G Pioneer Elite Display two additional memory slots PER Input (ISF Day/ISF Night) and gives you 9 Point Gamma Control. You really should use that mode and ControlCAL gives you access to it.. :D

Most of the Members here with Pioneer Displays are using it. I can give you access to the Beta Threads if you want to read up, just ask.

Let me know if you would like to get the Pioneer ISFccc Display Profiles for ControlCAL.

-Shawn

[GorGorBey]

Wolfy and GorGorBey, did you two get your I1 Pro's yet?

Yep :)

I received the new I1PRO Saturday morning.

I tested it. Everything was ok....

The ControlCal software is working fine (I redo a calibration from the beginning with the b18 release)

I found no issues during a 2 hours test...

This time I reached the perfection...

[mdfire]

Yep :)

I received the new I1PRO Saturday morning.

I tested it. Everything was ok....

The ControlCal software is working fine (I redo a calibration from the beginning with the b18 release)

I found no issues during a 2 hours test.

This time I reached the perfection (REC601 format...)

Awesome results GorGorBey

One question for you. At the weekend I was testing and got 10IRE with Delta E of about 2. Everything else was under 3-4 except IRE 40 which spiked to almost 8. Nothing I could do would resolve it and in the end I had to sacrafice 10IRE to bring it down again. Is this normal?

[mdfire]

Yep :)

I received the new I1PRO Saturday morning.

I tested it. Everything was ok....

The ControlCal software is working fine (I redo a calibration from the beginning with the b18 release)

I found no issues during a 2 hours test.

This time I reached the perfection (REC601 format...)

One other thing... are you going to post the sequence you used to get those results;)

[GorGorBey]

Awesome results GorGorBey

One question for you. At the weekend I was testing and got 10IRE with Delta E of about 2. Everything else was under 3-4 except IRE 40 which spiked to almost 8. Nothing I could do would resolve it and in the end I had to sacrafice 10IRE to bring it down again. Is this normal?

The measure at 10 IRE is not accurate. So don't bother with Delta E at this IRE (with an I1PRO measure start to be valid at 20 IRE)

You can play on the gamma value (by color) to correct a invalid RVB curbe. Did you try that ?

Can you post your file before and after your last modification ?

[mdfire]

The measure at 10 IRE is not accurate. So don't bother with Delta E at this IRE (with an I1PRO measure start to be valid at 20 IRE)

You can play on the gamma value (by color) to correct a invalid RVB curbe. Did you try that ?

Can you post your file before and after your last modification ?

Here they are. As you can see I got marginal improvements in the greyscale but my gamma curve is tailing off at the higher IRE's.

I havent really attempted adjusting the Colour yet, hence the reason for asking which procedures you used. Im not using the eye one pro just the LT.

[GorGorBey]

Here they are. As you can see I got marginal improvements in the greyscale but my gamma curve is tailing off at the higher IRE's.

I havent really attempted adjusting the Colour yet, hence the reason for asking which procedures you used. Im not using the eye one pro just the LT.

I prefer the second one...

You should be able to improve your curves (perhaps try to increase Low Green +1 or decrease Low Blue by 1)...

Nevertheless you need to start with CIE Diagram because these changes will have big impacts on RVB Curves, then you adjust gamma (first with Luminosity and Contrast secondly by Colour) and finally you modify RVB values...

[mdfire]

I prefer the second one...

You should be able to improve your curves (perhaps try to increase Low Green +1 or decrease Low Blue by 1)...

Nevertheless you need to start with CIE Diagram because these changes will have big impacts on RVB Curves, then you adjust gamma (first with Luminosity and Contrast secondly by Colour) and finally you modify RVB values...

Your procedure is the complete opposite to all the advice on the boards. Still your results are impressive so I will give it a try on another input at the weekend.

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?

[pppp1]

Sorry for these questions but this is my first time using anything like this:

What's RS232? How do you connect computer and TV? Do i need a special cable? How does it work?

[Wolfy]

Your procedure is the complete opposite to all the advice on the boards. Still your results are impressive so I will give it a try on another input at the weekend.

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?Don't get too hung up on results in the charts, they are really only an indication and especially when using low end equipment you are more likely adjusting against errors in the readings than actual errors in the Pioneer G8. Thus, if you achieve a perfect result in the graphs you have in reality only achieved a worse picture quality than you started with.

Using a Display 2/LT (or indeed a i1 Pro) you should as much as possible not move the Pioneer's primary colors using the TV's Color Management controls. This is not only me saying so, but the consensus of a few professional calibrators with high end equipment that I have asked regarding this. Pioneer's primary colors are close to standard and should require only very small adjustment if any at all and you should always keep looking at real material during calibration so as not to get too focused on results in a chart. Also remember that the CIE chart in particular only tells you part of the story.

Anyway, proper procedure during calibration should, IMHO, be:

Black level adjustment (Brightness)
Reference White level adjustment (Contrast)
Primary Colors gamut, check and adjust if necessary (I would just leave it as is or only make very small adjustments)
Gray scale adjustment
Gamma adjustment if necessary (should not require much if any if you leave Color Management alone, and also remembering that errors in either measurements and software calculations can be the reason for graphs not looking perfect)
Secondary Colors, check and adjust if necessary (same as for primary colors, I would leave as is or only make very small adjustment)
Check primary colors again and adjust if necessary
Start over from 4
Start over from 1 and if all is OK then you are finished

[GorGorBey]

Your procedure is the complete opposite to all the advice on the boards. Still your results are impressive so I will give it a try on another input at the weekend.

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?

It's true...The calibration process is different...

It works fine on the Pioneer...

[Wolfy]

Sorry for these questions but this is my first time using anything like this:

What's RS232? How do you connect computer and TV? Do i need a special cable? How does it work?RS232 is a serial interface used to connect the TV to the computer and vice versa. Yes, you need a special cable to connect the computer to the TV. Either a straight (i.e. not a crossed one) serial cable with DB9 (9 pin) female to female connectors or by using a gender changer male-to-female on one end of a cable with female to male connectors.

Or you could use a USB adapter, look in this thread (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29).

Good luck! :)

[GorGorBey]

Don't get too hung up on results in the charts, they are really only an indication and especially when using low end equipment you are more likely adjusting against errors in the readings than actual errors in the Pioneer G8. Thus, if you achieve a perfect result in the graphs you have in reality only achieved a worse picture quality than you started with.

Using a Display 2/LT (or indeed a i1 Pro) you should as much as possible not move the Pioneer's primary colors using the TV's Color Management controls. This is not only me saying so, but the consensus of a few professional calibrators with high end equipment that I have asked regarding this. Pioneer's primary colors are close to standard and should require only very small adjustment if any at all and you should always keep looking at real material during calibration so as not to get too focused on results in a chart. Also remember that the CIE chart in particular only tells you part of the story.

Anyway, proper procedure during calibration should, IMHO, be:

Black level adjustment (Brightness)
Reference White level adjustment (Contrast)
Primary Colors gamut, check and adjust if necessary (I would just leave it as is or only make very small adjustments)
Gray scale adjustment
Gamma adjustment if necessary (should not require much if any if you leave Color Management alone, and also remembering that errors in either measurements and software calculations can be the reason for graphs not looking perfect)
Secondary Colors, check and adjust if necessary (same as for primary colors, I would leave as is or only make very small adjustment)
Check primary colors again and adjust if necessary
Start over from 4
Start over from 1 and if all is OK then you are finished


I Totally agree with this procedure but I saw that my procedure is better on my particular display (I follow your procedure to calibrate other displays like projectors....)

Regarding software, I find that results are very similar (The difference is ridiculous whatever the software...)

I don't know why you bought an I1PRO if you think like that...

[Wolfy]

I Totally agree with this procedure but I saw that my procedure is better on my particular display (I follow your procedure to calibrate other displays like projectors....)Yes, and the reason it's different with the Pioneers is because their controls are flawed as soon as you use the Color Management to make adjustments to the TV's inherent colors. Don't you find it peculiar that you have a very "well behaved" gray scale until you use the Color Management controls?

Regarding software, I find that results are very similar (The difference is ridiculous whatever the software...)Yes, by software I mean the entire chain, measurement software, software in the TV, software in your player, etc.

I don't know why you buy an I1PRO if you think like that...Primarily I bought the i1 Pro because I want to increase repeatability between measurements. I got fed up doing a calibration only to find that the day after I would have to change settings in the TV to get similar results.

Don't gt me wrong here, I'm not saying that calibration is useless or not even that it is not necessary, it definitely is and especially with a great display like the Pioneer Kuro. I just caution anyone to use results in graphs as their only benchmark for calibration results and especially since the Pioneer TV both have flaws in the way its controls are implemented and since the Pioneer TV does not include a full fledged Color Management System, but only part of one.

Are you a pro calibrator, GorGorBey (not trying to be a jerk here, I'm genuinely interested)? Have you been following what has been written on forums in particular in regards to the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation?

[GorGorBey]

Yes, and the reason it's different with the Pioneers is because their controls are flawed as soon as you use the Color Management to make adjustments to the TV's inherent colors. Don't you find it peculiar that you have a very "well behaved" gray scale until you use the Color Management controls?

Yes, by software I mean the entire chain, measurement software, software in the TV, software in your player, etc.

Primarily I bought the i1 Pro because I want to increase repeatability between measurements. I got fed up doing a calibration only to find that the day after I would have to change settings in the TV to get similar results.

Don't gt me wrong here, I'm not saying that calibration is useless or not even that it is not necessary, it definitely is and especially with a great display like the Pioneer Kuro. I just caution anyone to use results in graphs as their only benchmark for calibration results and especially since the Pioneer TV both have flaws in the way its controls are implemented and since the Pioneer TV does not include a full fledged Color Management System, but only part of one.

Are you a pro calibrator, GorGorBey (not trying to be a jerk here, I'm genuinely interested)? Have you been following what has been written on forums in particular in regards to the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation?

Can you give me some links regarding the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation ?

[Wolfy]

Can you give me some links regarding the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation ?Here you go, a few that I found with a quick search (I haven't kept track of all posts that I have read):

This is regarding the previous generation, but I have used both and the symptoms are the same. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10126582#post10126582)

W. Jeff Meier has redone many Pioneer Elite calibrations that has been flawed using Pioneer ISF C3 and he has a measurement tool ($24,000) far superior to i1 Pro and also a huge amount of experience. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14051838#post14051838)

Second one from Jeff. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14018531#post14018531)

An ISF calibrator. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14005061#post14005061)

Doug Blackburn, ISF calibrator and writer for the renowned Widescreen Review. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14012197#post14012197)

Finally, here is my own investigation into what happens when using Pioneer's Color Management to move colors. (http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=8566) It's in Swedish, but you can use Google's translation pages or just look at the pictures. Personally I think that they speak for themselves.

I could probably find more and besides this I have numerous discussion with experienced people via both e-mail and PM, both Swedish and English (not saved though) and the consensus is the same.

I would like to reiterate that this does not make calibrating the Pioneer Kuros useless or arbitrary, but one should IMHO definitely be conservative when using Pioneer's Color Management.

[mdfire]

Have to say that is my experience. Touch the CMS and everything else is screwed up.

[GorGorBey]

Here you go, a few that I found with a quick search (I haven't kept track of all posts that I have read):

This is regarding the previous generation, but I have used both and the symptoms are the same. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10126582#post10126582)

W. Jeff Meier has redone many Pioneer Elite calibrations that has been flawed using Pioneer ISF C3 and he has a measurement tool ($24,000) far superior to i1 Pro and also a huge amount of experience. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14051838#post14051838)

Second one from Jeff. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14018531#post14018531)

An ISF calibrator. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14005061#post14005061)

Doug Blackburn, ISF calibrator and writer for the renowned Widescreen Review. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14012197#post14012197)

Finally, here is my own investigation into what happens when using Pioneer's Color Management to move colors. (http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=8566) It's in Swedish, but you can use Google's translation pages or just look at the pictures. Personally I think that they speak for themselves.

I could probably find more and besides this I have numerous discussion with experienced people via both e-mail and PM, both Swedish and English (not saved though) and the consensus is the same.

I would like to reiterate that this does not make calibrating the Pioneer Kuros useless or arbitrary, but one should IMHO definitely be conservative when using Pioneer's Color Management.

Thank you...

I quickly read these posts and I would like to make some comments:

I think that, most of the time, they talked about 408XD or 508XD models (big improvements has been done on the full HD model regarding Colour Management and impacts on RVB Curves. I'm sure that you know that...)

Secondly, in my particular case (Full HD) I was able to reach perfect results without scarifying RVB curves or gamma curve... It’s true that perhaps on your model it’s not a good idea to modify Gamut…

The last point is measure... Somebody mention that except with some expensive instrument you can't measure Colour.... Do you trust him? It perhaps the truth but a measure at 1 or 2 delta E is enough for me…

They talked more about ISF interest...And these discussions was very interesting...

[Wolfy]

...I think that, most of the time, they talked about 408XD or 508XD models (big improvements has been done on the full HD model regarding Colour Management and impacts on RVB Curves. I'm sure that you know that...)

Secondly, in my particular case (Full HD) I was able to reach perfect results without scarifying RVB curves or gamma curve... It’s true that perhaps on your model it’s not a good idea to modify Gamut…Yes, good points and I have mentioned this before, if not here then on other forums.

If it is true that there is no issue at all with Full HD Kuro then that should also be true with the new G9 Pioneers that are starting to come out. I am still skeptical since Pioneer didn't manage to fix this between G7 and G8 and the same issue were there then and they haven't, to my knowledge, added any functionality, but have they now fixed this issue then it will become apparent soon enough when calibrators get their hands on the new G9 sets.

You still don't have a complete CMS though only a part of one. I'm not trying to take anything away from your results. If it works for you then good for you, I would be very happy if Pioneer have fixed this problem.

The last point is measure... Somebody mention that except with some expensive instrument you can't measure Colour.... Do you trust him? It perhaps the truth but a measure at 1 or 2 delta E is enough for me…Well, yes and no. He has great equipment and is very knowledgeable, but it's quite apparent that there is an agenda there, even though there is truth in that the result you get is largely due to the quality of your tools and the experience and knowledge of the one using the tools.

I agree with you that a i1 Pro is for all intents and purposes enough for an enthusiast. It would make absolutely no sense in buying a tool for $24.000 to calibrate equipment costing less than that. ;) If I had a Home Theater for several $100.000 then I might consider one...

They talked more about ISF interest...And these discussions was very interesting...Agreed, just another reminder that we shouldn't focus too much on tools. Calibration is part science, part art and no tools in the world can change that.

Amongst others, one good point was regarding the locked nature of Pioneer's ISF modes, something I at first thought was a good thing, but for calibration of the tuner or a digital set top box for example, this is really a bad solution since there is such a huge difference between programming content that there is no one correct calibration setting. You really need to be able to make fine tuning while watching and I don't feel like watching a 2 hour show of any kind where my ISF cal. is way off.

[mdfire]

Amongst others, one good point was regarding the locked nature of Pioneer's ISF modes, something I at first thought was a good thing, but for calibration of the tuner or a digital set top box for example, this is really a bad solution since there is such a huge difference between programming content that there is no one correct calibration setting. You really need to be able to make fine tuning while watching and I don't feel like watching a 2 hour show of any kind where my ISF cal. is way off.

One of the articles suggested that it was better to calibrate the USER settings rather than the ISF. Must admit that as soon as I got controlcal I got stuck straight into ISF and never bothered much with the USER settings which I previously had. Anyone done a comparison?

[Wolfy]

One of the articles suggested that it was better to calibrate the USER settings rather than the ISF. Must admit that as soon as I got controlcal I got stuck straight into ISF and never bothered much with the USER settings which I previously had. Anyone done a comparison?From what I have read and measured myself all of the EU models --8XD suffer from a slight loss in shadow detail at 10IRE. I found the ISF modes with the 9 point controls better in a side-by-side comparison for this reason, but it's not a huge difference.

It will be interesting to see if I get the same with i1 Pro measurements and the Low Level Handling that is soon to be released with CalMAN 3.1 public beta. If so, the only way I can see to rectify that is by using the 9 point controls to boost IRE10 so then the ISF mode should be superior to User.

Other than that it may well be that User is better given that you don't touch the Color Management and that you can fine tune if you need to, e.g. for DTV, HDTV.

[mdfire]

From what I have read and measured myself all of the EU models --8XD suffer from a slight loss in shadow detail at 10IRE. I found the ISF modes with the 9 point controls better in a side-by-side comparison for this reason, but it's not a huge difference.

It will be interesting to see if I get the same with i1 Pro measurements and the Low Level Handling that is soon to be released with CalMAN 3.1 public beta. If so, the only way I can see to rectify that is by using the 9 point controls to boost IRE10 so then the ISF mode should be superior to User.

Other than that it may well be that User is better given that you don't touch the Color Management and that you can fine tune if you need to, e.g. for DTV, HDTV.

One problem I found with adjusting any of the user settings is that when you enter the home menu, the screen brightens slightly. The pioneer manual actually mentions this. Surely this affects readings when calibrating. This doesnt happen in ISF mode.

[GorGorBey]

Yes, good points and I have mentioned this before, if not here then on other forums.

If it is true that there is no issue at all with Full HD Kuro then that should also be true with the new G9 Pioneers that are starting to come out. I am still skeptical since Pioneer didn't manage to fix this between G7 and G8 and the same issue were there then and they haven't, to my knowledge, added any functionality, but have they now fixed this issue then it will become apparent soon enough when calibrators get their hands on the new G9 sets.

You still don't have a complete CMS though only a part of one. I'm not trying to take anything away from your results. If it works for you then good for you, I would be very happy if Pioneer have fixed this problem.

Well, yes and no. He has great equipment and is very knowledgeable, but it's quite apparent that there is an agenda there, even though there is truth in that the result you get is largely due to the quality of your tools and the experience and knowledge of the one using the tools.

I agree with you that a i1 Pro is for all intents and purposes enough for an enthusiast. It would make absolutely no sense in buying a tool for $24.000 to calibrate equipment costing less than that. ;) If I had a Home Theater for several $100.000 then I might consider one...

Agreed, just another reminder that we shouldn't focus too much on tools. Calibration is part science, part art and no tools in the world can change that.

Amongst others, one good point was regarding the locked nature of Pioneer's ISF modes, something I at first thought was a good thing, but for calibration of the tuner or a digital set top box for example, this is really a bad solution since there is such a huge difference between programming content that there is no one correct calibration setting. You really need to be able to make fine tuning while watching and I don't feel like watching a 2 hour show of any kind where my ISF cal. is way off.

I agree with you…

I will give you some examples:

- The first time I calibrated this display I reached perfect gamma and temperature curves. Strangely, the luminosity was closed to 57 FL at 100 IRE…It’s obvious that it’s too high. I should wear sun glasses to watch a movie….Now the luminosity is closed to 47 which is much better…

- I don’t agree that the target for gamma should be always 2.2….The only way to determine the target is too watch movies in dark scenes…Depending on the display I will change the target…

- Gamut, Tint and Saturations settings need to be set by viewing movies and sequences (I use Cartons and movies for that…) during the calibration.

I will say that results are a pre requisite to a good calibration but it's not sufficient...

[Wolfy]

One problem I found with adjusting any of the user settings is that when you enter the home menu, the screen brightens slightly. The pioneer manual actually mentions this. Surely this affects readings when calibrating. This doesnt happen in ISF mode.Yes, but it dims down quickly after that and AFAIK only affects the black level. I haven't noticed any real impact while calibrating, but then I haven't investigated it thoroughly.

[GorGorBey]

I agree with you…

I will give you some examples:

- The first time I calibrated this display I reached perfect gamma and temperature curves. Strangely, the luminosity was closed to 57 FL at 100 IRE…It’s obvious that it’s too high. I should wear sun glasses to watch a movie….Now the luminosity is closed to 47 which is much better…

- I don’t agree that the target for gamma should be always 2.2….The only way to determine the target is too watch movies in dark scenes…Depending on the display I will change the target…

- Gamut, Tint and Saturations settings need to be set by viewing movies and sequences (I use Cartons and movies for that…) during the calibration.

I will say that results are a pre requisite to a good calibration but it's not sufficient...

I just would like to add that I find very interesting to be able to calibrate Day and Night Settings....That's the interest of the ISF feature on the Pioneer....
If else the user settings gives similar results (but the RVB curves will be less accurate...)

[mdfire]

I just would like to add that I find very interesting to be able to calibrate Day and Night Settings....That's the interest of the ISF feature on the Pioneer....
If else the user settings gives similar results (but the RVB curves will be less accurate...)


I agree... its easy to lose sight of the fact that we are all just enthusiasts with an interest in seeing how things work. If you like what you see then thats the main thing:D

[venkatesh_m]

Hello to all,

I'm new to this forum. I'm based way out here in Malaysia in Asia and am attempting calibrate my Pioneer 428XG (Asian version, similar to European 428XD with analogue tuner). I have ordered a EyeOne Pro with Calman that is on the way to Malaysia. While waiting for the hardware, with Shawn's permission I loaded ControlCal to start to understand the software. I have 1 question.

To those who are using ControlCal with Calman, are you doing it all from 1 laptop? Are there any minimum requirements for the laptop. I am using a Dell Latitude D600, Intel 1.8GHz.

Thanks

[venkatesh_m]

Hello,

Another error I get very frequently when I open the software is an error like below:

Failed to initialize drawing surface. Please check that your graphic card meets the minimum requirements and the drivers are up to date. If your graphics card has low memory try switching to a lower resolution.

This error happens 90% at startup. Sometimes it does not occur. The laptop I have has a Mobility Radeon 9000 card. What is the minimum requirement needed for ControlCal?

[Turbe]

Hello,

Another error I get very frequently when I open the software is an error like below:

Failed to initialize drawing surface. Please check that your graphic card meets the minimum requirements and the drivers are up to date. If your graphics card has low memory try switching to a lower resolution.

This error happens 90% at startup. Sometimes it does not occur. The laptop I have has a Mobility Radeon 9000 card. What is the minimum requirement needed for ControlCal?

Do you have Microsoft DirectX 8 or later installed? What O/S is your laptop running?

I've only seen that error once, with a old machine that had an earlier version of DirectX installed (< DirectX 8).

.Shawn

[venkatesh_m]

Do you have Microsoft DirectX 8 or later installed? What O/S is your laptop running?

I've only seen that error once, with a old machine that had an earlier version of DirectX installed (< DirectX 8).

.Shawn

Shawn,

I have Windows XP SP2, Direct X 9.0c, 1GB RAM, Mobility Radeon 9000, 32GB Memory. Display resolution 1400 X 1050.

Should be sufficient , correct?

The way I get around this is to change the resolution to 1024 X 768, start ControlCal and then change the resolution back to 1400 X 1050. Will this be ok?

[Turbe]

Shouldn't be a problem... it is interesting that you get that message sometimes though..

[mdfire]

How to you export a profile then to share settings?:confused:

[Turbe]

How to you export a profile then to share settings?:confused:

I have not added the option to save/export all the Control's Values (and then load/Import them back in). It has been suggested by several Users.

The Save Option in Edit Mode is to save the actual Display Profile. Let's say you had a Epson Projector that you used in addition to your Pioneer, but there was no Display Profile for ControlCAL. You could create your own Display Profile, Save it and upload it to the Forum and allow others to use it (Share it).... :D


-Shawn

[mdfire]

I have not added the option to save/export all the Control's Values (and then load/Import them back in). It has been suggested by several Users.

The Save Option in Edit Mode is to save the actual Display Profile. Let's say you had a Epson Projector that you used in addition to your Pioneer, but there was no Display Profile for ControlCAL. You could create your own Display Profile, Save it and upload it to the Forum and allow others to use it (Share it).... :D


-Shawn

Thanks for that

[Turbe]

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?

This feature is not in Build 19, I may final v1.41 and add this in the next Version... or, I may add it in v1.41... not sure yet.

[venkatesh_m]

Hi all,

Would like to report that I could establish communications using ControlCal to receive data from the plasma display. Will update more when my EyeOne Pro arrives so that I can calibrate and save the 2 additional profiles.

:)

[Turbe]

Hi all,

Would like to report that I could establish communications using ControlCal to receive data from the plasma display. Will update more when my EyeOne Pro arrives so that I can calibrate and save the 2 additional profiles.

:)

That's great, looking forward to your additional feedback on your Model.

-Shawn

[joestefano]

Shawn, where do I enter the start code so that when I start CC I go directly to The Pioneer Profile?

Joe

[Turbe]

Shawn, where do I enter the start code so that when I start CC I go directly to The Pioneer Profile?

Joe

Joe,

Add the Startup_Load= line in your ControlCAL.ini file (under [Profile]). Make sure you use the complete path to the Display Profile.


[Profile]
Forced_Wait_For=-1
Startup_Load=C:\YourProfile.cdp

[AutoSend]
AutoSend_Timing=15


-Shawn

[HDCraig]

I have not added the option to save/export all the Control's Values (and then load/Import them back in). It has been suggested by several Users.



sorry i may have posted in the wrong thread (9G) but i was asking about this to

[pppp1]

I downloaded controlcal with the pioneer profiles about a month ago but haven't found the time to use it yet (still need to get a db9 cable to connect to the tv). i'm hoping to find some time in the next 2-3 weeks to start using it. before i start, what i want to know is this: from my experience in the past when i tried to calibrate movie mode with colorhcfr and the i1 to get gamma to 2.2 i always had to take brightness low and crash black detail. My question is how do i achieve a gamma of 2.2 with brightness set at +2, +3?

[joestefano]

Shawn,
Does the I1PRO attach to the screen with suction cups the same way as the Display 2 LT ?

Joe

[Wolfy]

Shawn,
Does the I1PRO attach to the screen with suction cups the same way as the Display 2 LT ?

JoeYes and No.

No, it has a holder with a counter weight. The holder has a foam (rubber foam?) ring similar to the D2/LT to keep ambient light from getting into the sensor, but no suction cups.

Yes, it does have another holder with a large suction cup, but this is for a CRT TV. I would never use that on a plasma TV.

[venkatesh_m]

EyeOne Pro can be attached to the PDP using the counter weight, suction cups will not work well on the 8G plasma's since the 1st layer is not technically glass. I use the counterweight to carry out calibrations.

[venkatesh_m]

That's great, looking forward to your additional feedback on your Model.

-Shawn

Quick update.

I managed to get down to doing some calibration on my EyeOne Pro and 428XG (Asian Model). I would like to confirm that ControlCal works perfectly fine. I managed to create ISFnight profile and tweak the gamma using the 9 point function. All buttons work. Still need to fine tune the settings to improve. I am using CalMan for my calibration.

Will report more when I have completed the calibration.

[iainrgibson]

Apologies if this is a dumb question...

I am starting out in calibration and have yet to use RS-232 an interface and the ControlCal software. I use Calman and have gone about as far as I can in the user menus of my display, and so ControlCal is the next frontier!

I have a Pioneer 428XD (UK model) and I've bought the necessary cables etc., but before I take the plunge, I just want to know -- is it possible to accidentally kill my display if I did the wrong thing? What about other manufacturers' displays? I am wondering if I should purchase business insurance before I start using RS-232 or service menu access for any displays.

Advice welcomed!

Thanks folks,
Iain

[Turbe]

Hi iainrgibson,

It's not a dumb question and has been asked before (see smkuro's posts):

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2&page=18

Pioneer has safeguards in place in the the ISFccc Interface and ControlCAL follows all of them (including full Pioneer Error Code Checking). One of these is the the 8 Minute timeout to leave the ISFccc mode and return automatically to Normal operation (not saving).

You cannot harm your Display by using the Controls in ControlCAL's ISFccc Display Profiles. Of course, ControlCAL does have a full terminal window (Advance Mode) where you could start typing random HEX Codes, obviously that is not recommended and I suggest you do not type in the Terminal Window and Press Enter (or any Terminal Program while connected to your Pioneer). You simply cannot do this by accident.

-S

[venkatesh_m]

Great! :D

Please do post/attach your Calibration results/files.......


.

Hi,

Attached are my results for ISF day calibration done using AVSHD709. I used both CalMan and HCFR, though they look slightly different. Pls let me know what I can do to improve.

[mdfire]

Hi,

Attached are my results for ISF day calibration done using AVSHD709. I used both CalMan and HCFR, though they look slightly different. Pls let me know what I can do to improve.

Those results are excellent, why do you want to improve. A delta E less than 3 means that any improvements are invisible to the human eye. Which probe are you using? why not post your flow procedure?

[venkatesh_m]

Those results are excellent, why do you want to improve. A delta E less than 3 means that any improvements are invisible to the human eye. Which probe are you using? why not post your flow procedure?

Thanks mdfire.

I use the EyeOne Pro with CalMan and HCFR.

My calibration flow was a hybrid from TomHuffman tutorial and Kal's Grayscale Calibration for dummies.

1. Set contrast using 100% white window (30-40ftL)
2. Set brightness using 10% white window (0.065 of 100% white window)
3. Set grayscale (10-90% white) using RGB high/low
4. Fine tune gamma using ISFccc interface with ControlCal:D
5. Adjust and check color/tint (Red 21%, Green 71%, Blue 8%)
6. Adjust CMS for CIE chart (I did not do this)
7. Check grayscale and adjust if necessary

My concerns were that on the RGB charts the reds are slightly high. Colour Temperature is slightly lower than 6500 because of this. This is my 1st time attempting calibration. Also on the gamma curve blues tend to drop off at 100%. I am wondering if my contrast is too high or low.

My final contrast was 33. Brightness was +1.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

[hariskar]

I started my first calibration today! I used HCFR, Controlcal and i1 pro.
I didn't use calman because HCFR is more familiar to me because of the dummies guide.
No problem with Controlcal, in fact it is a great program!
I didn't finish my calibration, till now I did the following steps:

1. Set contrast using 100% white window (30-40ftL) --> about 32
2. Set brightness using 10% white window (0.065 of 100% white window)
3. Set grayscale (10-90% white) using RGB high/low


Some questions:

a)Most guides say to start with brightness and then contrast, is it a problem if doing the reverse order? Why is the one way better than the other?

b)How can I calibrate Analog TV?


I saved my calibration as isf-night and will continue from this point.
Thank you for this great program and for this forums support!

[hariskar]

Any help please?

[transendance]

Hello Turbe.

Please Please excuse my ignorance. I have finally had the opportunity to read through the pages on 8g set up and have gained access with out trouble to my sets controls.
I had assumed however that the two sets of display profiles would "fit" over the blank template, say sort of like the d-nice manual settings and that what I would then need to do was "feed" them to the g9.

Now it seems that I am looking at a blank template and the values are "up to me".

What am I missing here? Please Help.

thanks in advance trans

[Turbe]

I think you are asking if ControlCAL has built in calibrated settings. The answer is no, ControlCAL grants access, activates and allows you to adjust ISFccc memory settings. The ISFccc memories have default settings but you wouldn't use the memory with those settings.

You can PM D-Nice to see if he has ISFccc settings for an 8G Elite (or another person).

Of course, the preferred was is for you to do an actual calibration (DIY) with a meter.. :D

[ShoeHorn]

Off Topic

does anyone know how to turn the 8g fans on in the service menu

the KRP series allow u to turn on the fans in the Integrator mode but looking at the 8g service manual i'm not sure how its done

[Rod#S]

Good day;

I need some help in calibrating the gamma in my Pioneer PRO-150FD. I had the tv calibrated last week and my calibrator used HCFR and was able to get very good results for the gray scale and both primary and secondary colors however we noticed that the gamma was off but could not find a way to monitor the effects to the gamma when adjusting the 9 point gamma controls in ControlCal. For example we selected point 7 and set all values to the max and then to the min but seen no change in the RGB gray scale or the primary/seconday colors so we were obviously doing something wrong. I'm not familiar with the HCFR software and frankly most of the talk in this thread is way over my head but I would like to pass on instructions to my calibrator so we can attempt to fix up the gamma. What screens in HCFR would he need to have active in order to measure the affects of the 9 point adjustments?

I can also ask for the HCFR files and or images of the calibration results so everyone can see.

Any and all instructions, suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Rod#S]

Here are some images I received from my calibrator.

[Turbe]

Do you have Energy Save/Power Save enabled?

What is your Contrast, Brightness and Color Settings for the ISFccc Memory (isf Day, isf Night).

[Rod#S]

My Enegery Save is Off and my my Room Light Sensor is Off.

My Day Settings are:

Contrast: 44
Brightness: -3
Color Mgmt R: 9
Color Mgmt Y: 2
Color Mgmt G: -12
Color Mgmt C: -3
Color Mgmt B: 0
Color Mgmt M: -1
Color: 10
Tint: 0
R-High (Drive): -3
G-High (Drive): 0
B-High (Drive): 2
R-Low (CutOff): -3
G-Low (CutOff): -1
B-Low (CutOff): 7
Color Space: 2

My Night Settings are:

Contrast: 34
Brightness: -3
Color Mgmt R: 11
Color Mgmt Y: 4
Color Mgmt G: -12
Color Mgmt C: -2
Color Mgmt B: 0
Color Mgmt M: 0
Color: 10
Tint: 0
R-High (Drive): -3
G-High (Drive): 0
B-High (Drive): 2
R-Low (CutOff): -2
G-Low (CutOff): 0
B-Low (CutOff): 7
Color Space: 2

The pictures I incuded were from the Night settings.

Thanks.

[Turbe]

How was the Color Control setting arrived at? Using a blue filter?

Also, what is the pattern source?

[Rod#S]

He uses a DVD with a bunch of patterns. I think he got the DVD ISO at the same time he got the HCFR software and if there was a reccommended calibration DVD for HCFR he probably has that one. I can ask. I want to sy Get Gray but I'm not sure. No, no color filter was used. I think he uses the 75% color boxes when setting the primary and secondary colors. He said he finds them more accurate then the 100% sources. The Color control was initially set at 0 and when setting red we found that it was off so he used the Color control to bring it in line. He said he finds red the most import of all the colors so he focuses on getting that as accurate as possible before moving onto the others. He said the Color control can only really be used to aid in correcting one color and he prefers to use it to correct the red if necessary. The blue is now the most off but since the color control was used to aid the red, trying to use it to aid the blue threw the red off.

[Turbe]

If I remember right, Get Gray's window sizes are larger than normal and may cause the issues you guys are seeing.

[Rod#S]

When you refer to window size, what do you mean exactly? Would you mind explaining the impact of a larger window size and what would be the proper window size? I apologize for sounding dumb but I really don't know much about this calibration stuff. From what you see with my settings and the images I included can you describe everything that seems out of the ordinary to you?

Thanks and I appreciate your responses.

[Turbe]

You don't want to use GetGray when using the ISFccc Interface (it's okay for Pure), use the HCFR Pattern Disc (or another with the appropriate sized Windows).

See: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3826&postcount=11

[Rod#S]

I just talked with my calibrator and he was using Get Gray.

[Turbe]

GetGray's small Window Size is larger than the industry standard small Window Size.

[Maksimka]

hello. Sorry bad English, I'm from Ukraine
On your website beginner. I am the owner of the plasma PDP-LX508D, you have an excellent site but on this model, there is no information.
If we believe these measurements
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP-LX508D/Calibration/
mode [Colour Space] 2 is not complete CIE diagram. According to European calibrators, they offer increased color to +12
http://www.avforums.com/forums/5035681-post1.html
AV SELECTION *** MOVIE ***

CONTRAST 28
BRIGHTNESS +2
COLOUR +12
TINT 0
SHARPNESS -12

PRO ADJUST> PURE CINEMA
FILM MODE OFF (BLUE RAY / HD DVD Smooth or Advanced)
TEXT OPTIMISATION OFF

INTELIGENT MODE OFF

PICTURE DETAIL
DRE OFF (Med if you prefer)
BLACK LEVEL OFF
ACL OFF
ENHANCER MODE 1
GAMMA 3

COLOUR DETAIL
COLOUR TEMP
LOW



CTI OFF
COLOUR MANAGEMENT
R 0
Y 0
G 0
c 0
B 0
M 0

COLOUR SPACE 2


I do not like these settings. They do not solve the problem of color.
Reading the forums found information that the American model Pioneer Elite 110FD and the European model PDP-LX508 is one and the same model. Using the settings of a D-Nice (Pioneer Elite 110FD) did not give poor results
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851&highlight=lx508
Good results showed mode USER, PURE such a regime does not, CINEMA bad. There were doubts that the LX508 and the 110FD is different TVs. Turning your forum came across the Frenchman GorGorBey, who paid a lot of time setting my LX508. Reconsider all your forum, did not find its settings. Can anyone else tells the reference configuration for LX508? Already head broke in search of a good quality pictures.
If you did not understand me, anyway thanks.

[Turbe]

Did you read through this Thread too? http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63

You may want to PM some of the Euro 8G Owners that posted in that Thread, like Wolfy, perhaps he will post here and add his thoughts too :thumbsup:

PM him the link to this Thread...

[Maksimka]

Thanks Turbe ;)

[Maksimka]

help me with the settings LX508 :(. GorGorBey disappeared, Wolfy does not respond to letters

[655321]

hi, was just wondering if anyone has used controcal with a pdp 5010. it appears that the pdp 5010 has the 232 port and when i power on with the "home menu/power" i get the interegator menu. i believe the pdp 5010 is an non-elite 8g.

thanks,
655321

[wl1]

Drive mode 1 and Pure=advanced is best for blu ray (ps3), with Drive mode 2 pure=off is the best for my Sky HD sat. signalling.

I had these feeding into HDMI 4 & 1 until recently, so no issues.

I now have an AVR, Onkyo 809, and wish to keep things simple. They now feed into the Amp, which then feeds HDMI 1 of my 8G 428.

My main concern is accommodating these different settings within the one input?

I am using ISF day/night for Pure setting differences, but find it a pain remembering Drive mode too.

Is there a better way?

I am considering getting a new dual HDMI blu ray - is this the best way round it?

[Turbe]

Pioneer did not make the Drive Mode an option in each ISFccc Memory for your Model so if you need to switch, you will have to with the Owner's remote each time in the Home Menu

[Blutarsky]

Back on the block guys! :thumbsup:

I have moved to a new house in April. Since then, my TV was stored in it's box...until today!

What a joy! I couldn't believe how much this sets still set the bar in image quality!

I was thinking to go through a calibration process, however I was wondering:

- If my Eyeone Sensor will still be reliable after 3 years
- Are there any news regarding calibration? At the time I was using ColorHCFR free + controlcal + getgray......
- Any Advise?

[Turbe]

Hi Blutarsky, long time.. :D

That Display 2 is old... lol There are many still using ColorHCFR, but CalMAN is going strong and there is also ChromaPure now. Also, there is a new meter, X-Rite's i1Display Pro (that's the retail version) and there are OEM versions available as well... Currently, only CalMAN supports the retail version.

As before, I still recommend the i1 EyeOne Pro (i1Pro) Spectro if you only have one meter (you can also use it to profile your Display 2 or other meter on your Display)... all 3 calibration applications support it to. My 2nd choice is the X-Rite ColorMunki Spectro (only support by CalMAN). More info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1373556


We have CalMAN / Meter Bundles for all of these meters.. see:

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/announcement.php?f=12&a=11


.

[Blutarsky]

Nice to see you again mate!

[Turbe]

I have not spoke to Wolfy for a long time either.. perhaps he's been very busy as you...

[Blutarsky]

No did I....