strange performance

[Chad B]

I've used ControlCal twice now, and Colorfact's ISF C3 utility before that.
The 1st time I used ControlCal was about 6 months ago on an 8G Elite. I like the interface and profile.

However, that time I had a strange result that made me forsake CC and use Pure mode instead. For some reason, using CC the color gamut was either too wide or too narrow. Using pure mode I could choose between the 2 color spaces and 1 was wide and the other was perfect. Why would using CC make the narrower color space too narrow? Maybe it was tracking rec 601 gamut points and Pure mode rec 709? Regardless, I abandoned CC and used Pure mode.

Yesterday I used it on a 151FD. The gamut was OK. However, the TV could only manage 29-30 ft-l before the gamma started to compress with window patterns. Didn't matter if the test display was turned on or off. Incredibly, in Pure mode it could do 33-34 ft-l. It was as if using CC activated a power save function or magically replaced the power supply with a weaker one. I made sure ACL and intelligent mode were off as well as any power saving function. I and the customer both like a bit more than 30 ft-l. I could have calibrated with a little gamma compression; after all, it's so dependent on window size it's not written in stone that you have to eliminate it. However, it would have added alot of complication if I wanted to do the 11 step gamma adjustment (turn contrast down to 29 ft-l, do 11 step gamma, then bump contrast back up at the end before saving ISF mode, and check for any interaction problems). Again I abandoned CC and calibrated Pure mode instead. What would have been a 1-2 hour calibration if I'd only concentrated on Pure mode turned into almost 5 hrs.

I can't understand either of these problems. I've been a professional calibrator for nearly 6 years, so I'm no novice; but it's still puzzling.

EDIT: I just split your post into 4 Paragraphs, little easier to read.. :)

[Turbe]

Hi,

Did you open/load Pioneer_9G_C3_Regions1_v0-4_P2 and set the Colorspace you want (and set the other Controls on that Page)? The ISFccc Profile Set is divided into two actual Display Profiles. It sounds like you didn't set the Colorspace for the Input's ISF Memory. I know before the workflow was known/published, many Calibrators didn't want to use the ISFccc Interface since it added too much time. This is no longer an issue.

Did you follow the recommended Pioneer ISFccc workflow (posted here and it was in the email that you received)?

I have not heard from anyone else experiencing this issue (only being able to manage 29-30 ft-l).

Some are not adjusting the 9-Point Gamma (no need to from what they say), others are:

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1599&postcount=15 which is from this THREAD (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77)

With the ISFccc workflow, the time should be around 2 Hours when calibrating the ISFccc Interface. I spoke to David Abrams and his last 9G Elite calibration (using ControlCAL and the ISFccc Interface) was at 2 Hours 20 Minutes but he forgot to enable Auto Send so that added 10-15 minutes.

Additional Feedback (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1588&postcount=54) from another Pro.

ControlCAL is simply the front end to the ISFccc Interface.. it does provide access to all the Controls and options available but doesn't Set any Controls automatically or change a Control's behavior from what Pioneer designed it to do.

I know some have been frustrated with Pioneer's CMS and the 9-Point Gamma Controls in the past...of course, this is Pioneer's ISFccc Inteface, ControlCAL is not limiting any Control... if you follow the recommended workflow you should be able to obtain excellent results as others are.

Do you have an Elite Dealer near you where you could work on one of their floor units to get the workflow down? It will pay to get it down, many customers are wanting (even demanding) the ISF Memories activated and calibrated.

I'm sure we'll be able to help you.... :D

[Chad B]

Yes, I knew about the 2 page profiles the 1st time. I could switch between the 2 colorspace selections. It's just that the narrow selection using CC was narrower than the narrow selection in Pure mode.
I did follow the instructions; everything went fine on that front. I have no explanation for the second try. It seemed like it activated a power save function that was not active in Pure mode. I did see and adjust all the parameters on both profile pages; as I said before I tried changing ACL and intelligent mode and the other enhancer.
It took so long because I spun my wheels trying to solve the issue. I do like the workspace and flexibility of CC, and when I can get past these issues and start using it more I am sure it will be very fast and smooth.
I don't have relationships with any Elite retailers nearby, but I'll try it again on my next 9G calibration.

[Turbe]

Maybe I'm not understanding something.. what do you mean by 'narrower' (with Pure vs ISFccc)? Can you explain what you mean with more detail..? sorry... :p

[Chad B]

The gamut measured narrower on the CIE chart; the primary points were inside the rec 709 triangle. When I changed to Pure mode, the primary points expanded slightly on the chart and overlapped the rec 709 triangle. In both ISF mode and pure mode the color space selection was the same.
That was a while ago, so I don't remember all the details except that I tried everything I could think of, including checking to make sure the color saturation wasn't just turned down farther with ISF C3.

[Turbe]

:oops: I re-read your original post... I read it too fast the first time and missed that you were even posting about the gamut.

I assumed you thought one or more of the ISFccc controls (when using ControlCAL) were limited in some way.

Take a look at D-Nice's graphs in Post #1 HERE (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77).

I haven't seen any concerns in regards to this, let's see if anyone else has experienced this or have any suggestions.

[D-Nice]

Do you mind posting the equipment and calibration software you used for these calibration? I've used ControlCAL numerous times with CalMAN Professional and never ran into this problem.

I've used ControlCal twice now, and Colorfact's ISF C3 utility before that.
The 1st time I used ControlCal was about 6 months ago on an 8G Elite. I like the interface and profile.

However, that time I had a strange result that made me forsake CC and use Pure mode instead. For some reason, using CC the color gamut was either too wide or too narrow. Using pure mode I could choose between the 2 color spaces and 1 was wide and the other was perfect. Why would using CC make the narrower color space too narrow? Maybe it was tracking rec 601 gamut points and Pure mode rec 709? Regardless, I abandoned CC and used Pure mode.

Yesterday I used it on a 151FD. The gamut was OK. However, the TV could only manage 29-30 ft-l before the gamma started to compress with window patterns. Didn't matter if the test display was turned on or off. Incredibly, in Pure mode it could do 33-34 ft-l. It was as if using CC activated a power save function or magically replaced the power supply with a weaker one. I made sure ACL and intelligent mode were off as well as any power saving function. I and the customer both like a bit more than 30 ft-l. I could have calibrated with a little gamma compression; after all, it's so dependent on window size it's not written in stone that you have to eliminate it. However, it would have added alot of complication if I wanted to do the 11 step gamma adjustment (turn contrast down to 29 ft-l, do 11 step gamma, then bump contrast back up at the end before saving ISF mode, and check for any interaction problems). Again I abandoned CC and calibrated Pure mode instead. What would have been a 1-2 hour calibration if I'd only concentrated on Pure mode turned into almost 5 hrs.

I can't understand either of these problems. I've been a professional calibrator for nearly 6 years, so I'm no novice; but it's still puzzling.

EDIT: I just split your post into 4 Paragraphs, little easier to read.. :)

[mlaun]

chad, maybe you were habing a similar to effect to what i had here:

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1717&postcount=1

[Chad B]

I'm using CalMAN Pro also, with an i1 Pro.
Do you think it might have turned on the room light sensor? I triple checked the power save function, but maybe I forgot to check that.
Mlaun, that's a strange problem also, but it doesn't sound like the one I had.
By the way, I tried to calibrate a buddy's 6020, but ran in to a few snags.
First, everyone probably knows this by now, but the instructions have the Pure Cinema modes out of order.
Also, I couldn't seem to get the cuts to work. Raising / lowering them seemed to have no effect until I went way out of range, and then they lit up black with the color I was adjusting.
Finally, I had some issues and questions regarding whether to calibrate movie or standard. Instructions say movie, but some posters on AVS say standard.
I only had 3 hrs to work on it and wasn't successful in getting it calibrated in either mode. I would have liked to stay longer and get it figured out, but that will have to wait till my next visit.

[Chad B]

I have several 9g Elite calibrations coming up in the next 2 weeks and I'm determined to make the ISF modes work. I won't give up; I'll have plenty of time to get these issues figured out.

[DisplayHarmony]

By the way, I tried to calibrate a buddy's 6020, but ran in to a few snags.
First, everyone probably knows this by now, but the instructions have the Pure Cinema modes out of order.
Also, I couldn't seem to get the cuts to work. Raising / lowering them seemed to have no effect until I went way out of range, and then they lit up black with the color I was adjusting.
Finally, I had some issues and questions regarding whether to calibrate movie or standard. Instructions say movie, but some posters on AVS say standard.
I only had 3 hrs to work on it and wasn't successful in getting it calibrated in either mode. I would have liked to stay longer and get it figured out, but that will have to wait till my next visit.

The 6020 instructions for Pure Cinema are correct, Advance is #2, Smooth is #3 (this is the same as in the ISFccc Interface too). You do need to follow those instructions Step-by-Step, use Movie (#3) for AV Selection. I believe D-Nice uses Standard (#1) for Pure Cinema, others use Advance. I believe Kevin Miller uses AV Selection: Movie (#3) and Pure Cinema: Standard (#1).

PURE CINEMA
0 - Off
1 - Standard
2 - Advance
3 - Smooth

If you choose to use Advance (#2) for Pure Cinema, you have to input 1080p/24 for it to save.

You can only calibrate Movie mode to use Pure Cinema Off/Standard/Smooth or Advance by itself. You cannot calibrate to use all Pure Cinema modes. If you choose to go the Pure Cinema Advance route, you have to send the panel a 1080p/24 signal to properly calibrate and save your work.

[Chad B]

I did use 1080p/24 initially (I read the instructions, honest! I actually studied them very carefully and had them open while doing the calibration, reading step by step while I carried out each task), but for the last half I used 1080p/60 because that's what my buddy uses for his sources. I didn't switch to 1080p/60 until I already tried 1080p/24 without success. That may be the cause of my mix up.

[DisplayHarmony]

Yes, I would input 1080p/60 and use Movie (#3) for AV Selection and Standard (#1) for Pure Cinema. You cannot use Advance (#2) for Pure Cinema if you input 1080p/60. :)

[davewolfs]

Yes, I would input 1080p/60 and use Movie (#3) for AV Selection and Standard (#1) for Pure Cinema. You cannot use Advance (#2) for Pure Cinema if you input 1080p/60. :)

Sorry but I am a little confused. What should be the deciding factor on what cinema mode to use and calibrate with? My BR/HDDVD source is 1080p/24 while my other source would be 1080p/60.