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Old 10-05-2008, 07:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by zaks View Post
As I mentioned before, I have the same issue with my 151 as Chad B reported: if I go beyond a certain contrast level in isfccc the point gamma curve takes a dramatic dip at the high end (exactly as shown in Chad B's second run picture).

I double checked all settings on both pages - I even RESET, then set everything by hand again: no difference. Power save mode is set to off. Could this be a defect of the set, or a "feature" of my particular firmware revision?
Have you attempted you use another pattern source besides your HTPC? Also, the ISFccc modes expect studio level signals....not PC spec'ed.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:04 PM   #22
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Thanks everyone. The pattern generator is not faulty, but the larger window size may be showing up the problem. The Sencore and Accupel windows are only about half the area of these quarter raster windows. That might explain why only one other person has experienced it; my largish windows are putting the APL over some threshold that smaller windows do not. I did another 151 yesterday with exactly the same results.
Trouble is, the ISF mode looks good, even with the compression. The main issue seems to be that I cannot get good looking "after" calibration graphs. Also, while the picture does look good, this is revealing some sort of problem with the ISF mode. I will post the graphs and data, as well as my settings.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:06 PM   #23
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BTW, I am using Y Cb Cr colorspace with studio levels.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:26 PM   #24
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1. Pure mode- notice the luminance at 100%: 120 Y. Contrast was set at 37.
2. ISF Day- notice the luminance at 100%: 118 Y. Contrast was set at 31.
3. ISF night- I reduced the contrast until the compression disappeared. Luminance is way down and contrast had to be reduced to 18. At contrast 19 there was a hint of compression.
4. Final ISF day- I decided to ignore the compression. Contrast is at 37. Notice the luminance is 128 Y.

These results were the same whether I was in the calibration mode or after when I was totally out of any adjustment modes. I tested this because some TV's act differently in the service menu than out.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:29 PM   #25
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Sorry, it doesn't look like the attachments made it through. I have to resize them.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:44 PM   #26
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Exactly how large are your test patterns?
Are they taking up 40-50% of the screen if so, your pattern generator is triggering the APL circuitry in the Kuro....all of which is completely normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
Thanks everyone. The pattern generator is not faulty, but the larger window size may be showing up the problem. The Sencore and Accupel windows are only about half the area of these quarter raster windows. That might explain why only one other person has experienced it; my largish windows are putting the APL over some threshold that smaller windows do not. I did another 151 yesterday with exactly the same results.
Trouble is, the ISF mode looks good, even with the compression. The main issue seems to be that I cannot get good looking "after" calibration graphs. Also, while the picture does look good, this is revealing some sort of problem with the ISF mode. I will post the graphs and data, as well as my settings.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:49 PM   #27
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They are 1/4 raster area.
With 1080P resolution, they are 960x540, which works out to 25% of the picture area. You could fit 4 of these windows, in 2 columns and 2 rows, in the picture area.
Yes, it may be triggering APL circuitry, but this is revealing that if that is the case, the APL circuitry is more aggressive in the ISF mode than in Pure mode.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:51 PM   #28
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Here are the latest graphs and data.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pure.jpg (141.4 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg isf day.jpg (139.4 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg isf night.jpg (137.5 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg isf day final.jpg (135.9 KB, 32 views)
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
They are 1/4 raster area.
With 1080P resolution, they are 960x540, which works out to 25% of the picture area. You could fit 4 of these windows, in 2 columns and 2 rows, in the picture area.
Yes, it may be triggering APL circuitry, but this is revealing that if that is the case, the APL circuitry is more aggressive in the ISF mode than in Pure mode.
The ISFccc and Pure are completely different on the 9G Kuros. The APL circutry is more agressive in the ISFccc modes as you can get 50% more light output.
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Old 10-05-2008, 09:19 PM   #30
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But that still doesn't explain why you (D-Nice) and Stephen aren't getting this compression issue. I asked David Abrams to check this Thread and comment but I know we would have heard something from him (or Kevin, Jeff or Gregg) if he/they were experiencing this.

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Old 10-05-2008, 09:28 PM   #31
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But that still doesn't explain why you (D-Nice) and Stephen aren't getting this compression issue. I asked David Abrams to check this Thread and comment but I know we would have heard something from him (or Kevin, Jeff or Gregg) if he/they were experiencing this.

Any way we could get an official word from either Pioneer or the ISF?
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Old 10-05-2008, 09:46 PM   #32
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Well, I'm not sure exactly what to ask yet.

How much larger are those windowed patterns from your generator vs an Accupel/Sencore? EDIT: NVM, you posted this above.

I wish you could try another pattern source... even do a simply test with AVS HD709 with the customer's BD player...

Last edited by Turbe; 10-05-2008 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 10-05-2008, 10:03 PM   #33
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Well, I'm not sure exactly what to ask yet.

How much larger are those windowed patterns from your generator vs an Accupel/Sencore?

I wish you could try another pattern source... even do a simply test with AVS HD709 with the customer's BD player...
I used to have a Sencore VP403, but I just sold it a month ago. I always thought it's windows were pretty small. Going from memory, I'd say they were only about half the area of the Quantum Data's. I have an Accupel HDG2000, but it's component only and only has 25% steps. It's windows are small, too. I have a DVDO VP30 that I use as a backup, and it's windows look about the same as the Quantum Data's, or maybe even a tiny bit bigger.
I could try DVE HD-DVD or DVE Basics Blu Ray... Trouble is, I don't have any more 9G's on the calendar for a while.
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Old 10-05-2008, 10:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbe View Post
Well, I'm not sure exactly what to ask yet.

How much larger are those windowed patterns from your generator vs an Accupel/Sencore? EDIT: NVM, you posted this above.

I wish you could try another pattern source... even do a simply test with AVS HD709 with the customer's BD player...
I would like to know if indeed the ISF mode has more aggressive APL circuitry, and if so, why?
Strong light output is not the enemy! Watching a TV that puts out a meager 26 ft-l is no fun. It's passable in a totally dark room, yes, but it's horrible in a typical living room.
Could it be possible that the comments like "ISF mode is like Pure mode on steroids" is due in part to the limiting, which is boosting or limiting depending on the raster size? Kind of like FM radio, where they compress the audio's dynamic range even more than it was compressed during mastering because it makes it sound louder and "better"?
I know if it were a straight (non window size related) compression it would look bad, probably imparting a clayface look. But with it being window size related, maybe it's only boosting/compressing certain images in a euphonic way and therefore making it look much brighter without obviously bad looking side effects.
I want to clarify, though, that I am merely speculating, and I do not want to become some crusader for the "evils" of ISF mode. On the contrary, I do like ISF mode, and as I said before I like the picture even when I measure all that compression. I thought it looked brighter and punchier than Pure mode. I'm just curious why I like it so much more; is it an inaccuracy that I like?

Last edited by Chad B; 10-05-2008 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:17 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Turbe View Post
But that still doesn't explain why you (D-Nice) and Stephen aren't getting this compression issue. I asked David Abrams to check this Thread and comment but I know we would have heard something from him (or Kevin, Jeff or Gregg) if he/they were experiencing this.

Am I missing something. Are D-Nice et al who doesn't notice this compression issue using the same pattern generator as Chad B?

If not, then the size of the patterns may well be the source of this issue. IIRC, DVE uses 18% window size, maybe an increase to 25% is enough to trigger the APL limiter when in ISF mode?

It does seem poor design on Pioneer's part if, which seems very likely, the APL limiter kicks in that much more aggressively at 25% and not 18%. Then again this should manifest itself as quite noticeable floating whites when in ISF mode and watching higher APL scenes.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:21 AM   #36
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I would like to know if indeed the ISF mode has more aggressive APL circuitry, and if so, why?
Well, if ISF Mode yields more light output then a more aggressive APL limiter is simply put in place as a safe guard not to overdrive the display's electronics, but I find it strange that this manifests itself at 25% window size and not at for example 18% window size. Had your window size been 40% then it would have been more understandable.
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:20 AM   #37
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Just a little clarification on my experience with Pro 151FD. My signal generator is the Sencore V403C. Anyway, in regards to gamma compression I did not have any issues in ISF Day mode. I yielded a about 43 ftl of output and had a flat gamma. In ISF Night, I calibrated and yielded about 35 ftl but I did experience a bit of gamma compression. I made what I would consider fairly drastic changes to the 10 point gamma to achieve a fairly flat gamma at about 2.15. When I calibrated ISF night and took my initial readings I remember saying .... WTF.... Especially because I never did experience that nuance in ISF Day. At that point I shifted gears into gamma adjustment mode. Thank goodness for 10 pt gamma adjust.

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Old 10-06-2008, 05:56 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Well, if ISF Mode yields more light output then a more aggressive APL limiter is simply put in place as a safe guard not to overdrive the display's electronics, but I find it strange that this manifests itself at 25% window size and not at for example 18% window size. Had your window size been 40% then it would have been more understandable.
I am curious; is anyone else experiencing higher light output for the same contrast numbers in ISF mode like I am? For example, in Pure mode contrast setting of 37 yeilds me 120Y, but in ISF mode it yields 128 Y with compression.
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Old 10-06-2008, 06:00 AM   #39
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The reason it's not happening to me is because the test patterns I use do not take up 1/4 of the screen.

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But that still doesn't explain why you (D-Nice) and Stephen aren't getting this compression issue. I asked David Abrams to check this Thread and comment but I know we would have heard something from him (or Kevin, Jeff or Gregg) if he/they were experiencing this.

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Old 10-06-2008, 06:02 AM   #40
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Now that I have my window size to suspect as triggering the problem, it will be easy for me to test. I can either request CalMAN use a smaller window (the Quantum Data has hundreds of patterns, and I would think there would be a smaller useable pattern in there), or I can make my own smaller windows with it's VGM software and when it comes time to make the run I will just control the generator manually like in the good ol' days. Of course, I could also use DVE as I said earlier.
I wish I had another 151 or 111 coming up in the next few days. The idea that window size was triggering it was only starting to take shape with me when I did the last one, and I didn't think to experiment with different sizes.

Last edited by Chad B; 10-06-2008 at 06:07 AM.
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