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Old 08-14-2008, 05:03 AM   #41
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M.V.A. !!!! (Most Valuable Answers)

Thanks D-Nice, I beleive everyone will benefit from your great experience with these sets.

More questions here:

- About colorpoints: what strategy did you follow? Those few clicks have been applied accordingly to flatten the grayscale or did you adjust trying to get closer to CIE reference, without spoiling too much the grayscale?

- Why did you use the I1pro? Was it a "didactical" choice, just because here no one owns a PR meter?

- If using the I1pro on these sets, what are the advices you would give using such a meter, like particular weaknesses or limits?

- Did you keep the meter plugged on the screen for the whole calibration sessions or did you unplug the meter between measurements sessions?

- Did you try a day-after measurements to see if the values changed?

- Do you think a calibration performed with a I1pro shows eye-perceivable differences in respect to a calibration done with a Display LT?

Thanks again for your precious advices
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:33 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
- About colorpoints: what strategy did you follow? Those few clicks have been applied accordingly to flatten the grayscale or did you adjust trying to get closer to CIE reference, without spoiling too much the grayscale?
Both. Due to Pioneer's CMS implementation, one has to pick which and how of each control they use. For instance, I could have gotten the green color right at reference numbers. However, it would cause severe grayscale problems on the lower end which cannot be corrected.

Quote:
- Why did you use the I1pro? Was it a "didactical" choice, just because here no one owns a PR meter?
Yep. I'm all for DIY calibration. How many DIY'er do you know that would pay for such a device....only to calibrate their display.

Quote:
- If using the I1pro on these sets, what are the advices you would give using such a meter, like particular weaknesses or limits?
Patience It can be slow and needs a black level re-cal every 10 minutes or so. It is the best for DIY plasma calibration....followed closely by the Chroma5

Quote:
- Did you keep the meter plugged on the screen for the whole calibration sessions or did you unplug the meter between measurements sessions?
Plugged on the screen? I had to take it down for each black reading re-cal.

Quote:
- Did you try a day-after measurements to see if the values changed?
Yes. The drifts were negligible.

Quote:
- Do you think a calibration performed with a I1pro shows eye-perceivable differences in respect to a calibration done with a Display LT?
That depends. If you can tame the LT to not flux so much between readings (it can be done....just a PITA to do), and actually have an accurate LT, the visual difference is very, very slight. Your better off getting a Chroma 5 with CalMan. 389US is a steal
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:46 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
It is the best for DIY plasma calibration....followed closely by the Chroma5

If you can tame the LT ..... Your better off getting a Chroma 5 with CalMan. 389US is a steal


This is great, exactly what we needed.. someone who has the C5 and the I1 Pro and has done/will do a comparison...

I know you are slammed right now, are you going to report/post a comparison with the two in the future (when used on the Pioneers)?
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:43 PM   #44
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Fantastic D-Nice, a few posts and you've filled in the holes we were all looking for!

Another question: there have been a lot of discussions about the correct interpretation of low IRE/% patterns measurements... some people state you can't trust your instrument at 10%.... you should follow what your eyes actually see... what is your opinion about this point, particullarly using the I1pro? What strategy do you apply?

Curiosity: apart from the cost, what gain, in the calibration experience, can you witness when switching from I1Pro to a PR meter? Is there really such a big difference in a set calibrated with the I1pro and a PR?

Thanks again for helping

P.S. - It would be great if you could write down a sort of primer on semi-advanced calibration of these sets... there are many valuable general-purpose (projector, LCD, plasmas) guides for dummies out there but all of them are missing practical advices, like suggested meters for the Kuros, how to warm up correctly the meter, how to recal correctly, what typical errors to avoid, what patterns to use and why, if it does any sense to aim for references other than REC709.... and so on.
A sort of "Plasma Calibration Bible" ....

I can see a fast rise of Calibration Forums with you as a contributing editor...
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post
p.s. - it would be great if you could write down a sort of primer on semi-advanced calibration of these sets... There are many valuable general-purpose (projector, lcd, plasmas) guides for dummies out there but all of them are missing practical advices, like suggested meters for the kuros, how to warm up correctly the meter, how to recal correctly, what typical errors to avoid, what patterns to use and why, if it does any sense to aim for references other than rec709.... And so on.
A sort of "plasma calibration bible" .....
^^^^ +1

Last edited by Turbe; 08-14-2008 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:10 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Turbe View Post


This is great, exactly what we needed.. someone who has the C5 and the I1 Pro and has done/will do a comparison...

I know you are slammed right now, are you going to report/post a comparison with the two in the future (when used on the Pioneers)?
Can it wait untl next month? After I post this review and the 9G NE items, I would like to take a vacation for the remainder of this month Also I will have a 65PZ850u in house for review and calibration. I think what the LT and Chroma 5 can do on a Panasonic would also be beneficial.
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:21 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Another question: there have been a lot of discussions about the correct interpretation of low IRE/% patterns measurements... some people state you can't trust your instrument at 10%.... you should follow what your eyes actually see... what is your opinion about this point, particullarly using the I1pro? What strategy do you apply?
Use both your eyes and equipment. I personally can visually detect spikes in the individual color channels @ 10IRE. With all other panels out there, 10IRE will look reddish or bluish. It is neutral gray on the 111FD I have....just like my measurements say.


Quote:
Curiosity: apart from the cost, what gain, in the calibration experience, can you witness when switching from I1Pro to a PR meter? Is there really such a big difference in a set calibrated with the I1pro and a PR?
Speaking strickly on the Pioneers....no visual difference. Of course there are number differences....but again an experienced calibrator (DIY or certified) should never just look at the numbers

Quote:
P.S. - It would be great if you could write down a sort of primer on semi-advanced calibration of these sets... there are many valuable general-purpose (projector, LCD, plasmas) guides for dummies out there but all of them are missing practical advices, like suggested meters for the Kuros, how to warm up correctly the meter, how to recal correctly, what typical errors to avoid, what patterns to use and why, if it does any sense to aim for references other than REC709.... and so on.
A sort of "Plasma Calibration Bible" ....

I can see a fast rise of Calibration Forums with you as a contributing editor...
Already a future project However it doesn't currently have a completion date.
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Old 08-14-2008, 03:36 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Can it wait untl next month? After I post this review and the 9G NE items, I would like to take a vacation for the remainder of this month Also I will have a 65PZ850u in house for review and calibration. I think what the LT and Chroma 5 can do on a Panasonic would also be beneficial.
LOL of course... (but not Calibration Forum Paid Vacation, right... )

Last edited by Turbe; 08-14-2008 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 08-17-2008, 11:09 AM   #49
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LOL of course... (but not Calibration Forum Paid Vacation, right... )
Thanks for the reply...I have no problem in supporting this,but I need some clarity on what this stuff means to me.
I am not a very tech oriented person...just a little bit
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:03 PM   #50
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Each of the 2/3 Memories Per Input available via the Pioneer ISFccc Interface can be calibrated independently, including Pure Cinema and ColorSpace for each Memory on each Input. The ISFccc interface is the only way to use the 9-Point Gamma Controls.

You use ControlCAL to adjust each of the Controls available (see screen caps in Post #1 of this thread for available Controls). ControlCAL supports all the Controls in the Pioneer ISFccc Interface.

Once each Memory is calibrated and activated, you do not use ControlCAL, you simply select the Memory from your Display's Menu (AV Selection). The standard AV Selections are still available and can be changed/calibrated as you do now. ControlCAL is used during the calibration process. If you need to make changes to the Controls in one or several ISFccc Memories, you simply use ControlCAL again.

ControlCAL is the only application that can access and activate the 9G's ISFccc Interface.
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Old 08-17-2008, 12:33 PM   #51
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I thought Michael's Post would help others understand why some Professionals do not use the Pioneer ISFccc Interface (this is changing )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Are you professionals using the ISF inputs on Pioneers sets or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tlv View Post
Greetings

Let's say you want to do it right and push the performance ... making the most out of what Pioneer gives you. You make a few changes in the CMS on one color ... then you have to go back to look at the grayscale and retweak it. Then a few more clicks ... then back to grayscale ... then a few more clicks ... then back to grayscale ... but!!!!!

Now you find out that you can't fix the grayscale at all this time no matter what you do. So it's reset time back to the previous position and set the one cms parameter back to the previous step. Now go onto the next color ...

There could be 30 to 60 grayscale iterations here trying to tweak out that last few % of performance. And your eyes might not even see the differences on live images.

A 3 hour calibration session has ballooned to 10+ hours ... and suddenly the $350 you are paying your calibrator is not such a great deal for him.

Mind you ... you don't need access to the C3 to do this though. Perfectly achievable in the user menu. All the stuff is there to play with.

Do I as a pro calibrator use the C3 ... yes and no. On Previous generations before G8 ... yes ...

On the G8 ... so far no ... because of the interface fiasco. Although that looks to be solved now. I was doing it all in the user menu for the clients. The results are the same ... and in some ways ... offers the client more flexibility as a result. I am returning to a number of my G8 clients to do it via the C3 interface now because they want it. Those special ISF letters on the screen.

Will they see a difference in performance after it gets done in the C3 ... not at all.

Now we are at the G9 ... and there is more uncertainty again.

regards
Also, some Professionals do not like the idea of 'locking' the ISF Day, ISF Night and ISF Auto Memories. Of course, ControlCAL now makes it easy to access and configure / re-configure them.

Since the proper Pioneer ISFccc workflow has been worked out, I believe more Professionals will start using it since the time needed to perform the calibration will be the same.

I will be Posting a complete list of Professionals (and the Regions they will travel to) who have ControlCAL and do calibrate the Pioneer Elites (and 8G and 9G Models with the ISFccc Interface in other Regions) using the ISFccc Interface. David Abrams of Avical.com does National Tours (North America) and Chris Nicholl at Kent Home Cinema (UK) uses ControlCAL. If you would like another referral, feel free to PM me.

Last edited by Turbe; 08-17-2008 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:04 AM   #52
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Very good first experience with using ControlCal (just to become familiar with the functionality at this stage) so far.

One point is a pain in a neck. Turbe: after some delay in sending a comand (like 30 sec) LX5090 starts immediately to count down the time left for one for calibration. I guess catching flies is not the environment we are looking for during the calibration. Can this be somehow fixed / adjusted via parameter set?

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Old 08-29-2008, 09:21 AM   #53
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One point is a pain in a neck. Turbe: after some delay in sending a comand (like 30 sec) LX5090 starts immediately to count down the time left for one for calibration. I guess catching flies is not the environment we are looking for during the calibration. Can this be somehow fixed / adjusted via parameter set?
No, the 8 minute timeout cannot be changed or disabled. It is one of Pioneer's "Safety Mechanisms".

When I did ask for the option to change this value, I was told 8 Minutes is more than enough time.

Remember, the expectation is that you know what you are doing once you enter the ISFccc Interface.

I've been told it's an inconvenience, but after ColorHCFR and/or CalMAN are learned and the proper Pioneer ISFccc workflow is used, I rarely see any posts about it.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:12 PM   #54
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I am an ISF Certified Calibrator and have used ControlCAL on two Pioneer Elite 9G plasmas so far (one being my own). I congratulate you on the software - it works and does what it's advertised to do. I have had no problem with it. If you are keeping a list of enhancement ideas for future releases, I have these suggestions:

1. For activation. I had no problem activating with the Professional License key you sent me. But I recommend that after one does activate successfully with a paid license that the activation selection in the pull-down menu is then greyed-out (could say "This software has been Activated" or something like that.) As it stands now one can select the activation selection item again and all the fields are blank so it looks as if one had never activated.

2. After activating with a paid license key have the licensee's name appear on the startup splash-screen saying "this software is licensed to ....."

3. There is still a problem with the Y-Delay selection, but ignoring it causes no problems.

4. As I understand the Nine (9) Point Gamma, points 1-9 correspond to 10 IRE to 90 IRE. I would label them as such.

5. Get rid of the two page concept (P1 and P2) and have a single page with P1 and P2 tabs. (Make it work like tabbed browsing.)

And that's about it. Again, I like your software a lot.


Frank
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:03 PM   #55
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Thanks for your feedback..

Quote:
Originally Posted by deterministic View Post
2. After activating with a paid license key have the licensee's name appear on the startup splash-screen saying "this software is licensed to ....."
I can't disable it once activated since ControlCAL can be activated on a per Display Profile basis.. a new Key can be entered to activate additional Display Profiles. It's already on my 'to-do list' to have the Activated Name/Company Name displayed..

Quote:
Originally Posted by deterministic View Post
3. There is still a problem with the Y-Delay selection, but ignoring it causes no problems.
This is by design. I made the decision to have all the Controls available.. since Y-Delay is only used on Analog Inputs, its label will turn red on REFRESH when used with Digital Inputs. If you don't have Error Dialogs Disabled/Unchecked, you will also see this Dialog:



Originally, I was going to release a Display Profile Set without that Control, but others convinced me not to.

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5. Get rid of the two page concept (P1 and P2) and have a single page with P1 and P2 tabs. (Make it work like tabbed browsing.)
I believe you have seen the New Interface Thread..
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:27 PM   #56
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"As it stands now one can select the activation selection item again and all the fields are blank so it looks as if one had never activated."

Once activated ControlCAL's main window's title will show Registered, Professional or Professional Plus.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:57 AM   #57
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Once activated ControlCAL's main window's title will show Registered, Professional or Professional Plus.
Confirmed.
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:13 AM   #58
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Quote:
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...
I believe you have seen the New Interface Thread..
any news regarding the new interface yet?
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:28 PM   #59
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I don't have anything new to report.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:09 PM   #60
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I can't get ControlCal to work with my 111FD. Its serial#HFPM003918UC. I have the current version(b20) plus the 9G/Region 1 profile and have followed all the instructions in this thread and still get the "Display's ISF Level is not Compatible with this Profile" error. I have tried three different computers with a serial cable then with a usb/serial adapter. In all cases I get send/receive messages from the terminal window but no ability to turn on the display or make adjustments. Advice?
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